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Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

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Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#91

Post by blacksmith_tb »

tehabe wrote: post #52

This could really the death blow for the Diesel engine in cars. Over a decade people have promoted the Diesel as a cleaner, more efficient fuel for cars and car makers spent billions to improve the engines and apparently even more in marketing. Now, the bubble collapsed. Also, Germany currently gives Diesel owners a rebate on the fuel tax. That is why a liter of Diesel is around €1.10 and a liter of gas is around €1.…

But isn't the truth a little more complex? In terms of CO2 emissions, those diesels are about twice as efficient (distance traveled on the same volume of fuel). So they are potentially better for the global environment at the same time they are worse for the local one... That said, I am happy to have just switched from an old diesel to a PHEV, but even it can't beat riding my bicycle to work...

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#92

Post by hx87 »

tehabe wrote: post #52

This could really the death blow for the Diesel engine in cars. Over a decade people have promoted the Diesel as a cleaner, more efficient fuel for cars and car makers spent billions to improve the engines and apparently even more in marketing. Now, the bubble collapsed. Also, Germany currently gives Diesel owners a rebate on the fuel tax. That is why a liter of Diesel is around €1.10 and a liter of gas is around €1.…

Still can't beat turbodiesel fuel economy, especially on the highway. Chevrolet Cruze diesels routinely get >60mpg on the highway, and that's the last generation, which unlike VW diesels were fully emissions compliant.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#93

Post by woobar »

rogerbinns wrote: post #66
abainbridge wrote: post #64

As I've cycled around Cambridge, UK for the last 17 years, I've noticed now diesel cars that seemed OK when new (ie no noticeable soot or smell from the exhaust) become problematic about half way through their life - presumably due to wear or poor maintenance. Are there any studies of emissions from vehicles in the second half of their useful life? Let's say the average car in the UK will have done about 120,000 mile…

Here in California I find the emissions testing bizarre. Instead of actually measuring the emissions, they just plug a computer into the OBD port and use whatever the car itself reports!

This could be more reliable than measuring emissions at the tailpipe. In my state vehicle registration is not renewed until the car computer sends a report to the centralized DMV database. Before that, cheating the emission test was much more easier, because the test was not linked to a particular car.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#94

Post by guscost »

dovdovdov wrote: post #9

But, they have all those blue and green emblems on the back. :/ When I see these cars getting floored and I see the dark grey/black smoke coming out I often wonder, this must be super healthy for all of us.

The smoke/soot you can see is particulate matter, not NOx. That's only a problem with older diesels or if the owner removes the filter, modern diesels with intact DPFs emit way less particulate matter than an average gasoline car.

The health problem with NOx (as I understand it) is that it will react with oxygen producing ozone and therefore smog, if there is enough in the air.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#95

Post by tehabe »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #91
tehabe wrote: post #52

This could really the death blow for the Diesel engine in cars. Over a decade people have promoted the Diesel as a cleaner, more efficient fuel for cars and car makers spent billions to improve the engines and apparently even more in marketing. Now, the bubble collapsed. Also, Germany currently gives Diesel owners a rebate on the fuel tax. That is why a liter of Diesel is around €1.10 and a liter of gas is around €1.…

But isn't the truth a little more complex? In terms of CO2 emissions, those diesels are about twice as efficient (distance traveled on the same volume of fuel). So they are potentially better for the global environment at the same time they are worse for the local one... That said, I am happy to have just switched from an old diesel to a PHEV, but even it can't beat riding my bicycle to work...

I think that is a fair point. But as the report mentions, trucks and busses are fine. Because with those it apparently not an issue to add Diesel exhaust fluid to the mix.

But I can't imagine that the usual drivers want the hassle with filling up two tanks.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#96

Post by 08-15 »

> Nitrogen oxides cause tens of thousands of early deaths in Europe

Complete bullshit. There isn't a single death certificate in the world that lists "NOx poisoning" as cause of death, unless it was an industrial accident.

These numbers come from assuming that some high dose of NOx will kill you, therefore 1% of that dose kills one in a hundred. So, at least for regulatory purposes to scare people, we can take a tiny dose, multiply it by a huge number of people, and get the number of deaths.

Apparently, this is true for any chemical, such as Paracetamol. 10g of Paracetamol are reasonably likely (about 50%?) to kill you. So if 100 people take 200mg each, one of them is going to die, right? Apparently, "30 million packs" are sold each year in the UK, each containing about 10g, and somebody swallows most of it. So every year, Paracetamol kills about 15 million people in the UK. Or maybe just 5 million, if some Paracetamol is flushed down the toilet. So it takes no more than 13 years, and there nobody left in the UK to be killed by NOx.

But the UK isn't devoid of people. That's because this whole logic is bullshit, and when applied to medicine, everybody knows it. When NOx concentrations of less than a ppm are involved, it suddenly makes sense.

Dear ICCT: If you feel the need to make up bullshit like this, you are tackling a non-problem.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#97

Post by 08-15 »

martinald wrote: post #74

This isn't surprising. Larger engines are almost always more efficient, compare for example a gas boiler in a house vs a CCGT in a powerplant. But overall diesel has been a complete disaster and will take probably a decade minimum to undo. Complete tunnel vision focus on CO2 emissions at all costs which continues to plague environmental regulation IMO.

> compare for example a gas boiler in a house vs a CCGT in a powerplant

One makes hot water (~100% efficiency based on LHV), the other makes electricity (~50% effciency). What's your point?

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#98

Post by 08-15 »

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #63
tehabe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The car maker lobby VDA even says today that stricter emission standards are not needed. Btw, the chairman of the VDA is Matthias Wissmann, wo used to be the German transport minister.

The sad truth is, that we would not need stricter standards, if the current standards would be met in reality -- that would be much better than another EURO 7 or 8. The other sad thing is, that the praised German car manufacturers are about to loose against new comers from the US and China. Good for the environment and the health of the people of course .... but how said Gorbatschow: "Who comes to late ..." But that…

> Schroeder

The guy known as Gazprom Gerhardt, who coincidentally decided to phase out nuclear power? Yeah, sad story.

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#99

Post by scrumper »

bluead wrote: post #82
vkou wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a jobs program.

It's only partly a jobs program. Really, the jobs are mostly a side effect. Jersey people love their full service stations and are very protective of it. In and out, don't get out of the car, don't mess up your precious hair and hands dealing with the elements or the pump, back on the road. I don't identify with the attitude at all, but it's a real part of the culture. I've been chased back into my car by attendants…

I can understand not bothering to drive to Jersey just to get gas (though it is cheaper), but spending more to fill up before crossing the border solely to avoid the experience of someone else pumping gas for you seems a little extreme. Is there more to your dislike of NJ gas stations? Whatever the reason, I respect you for having the courage of your convictions, especially this time of year!

Re: Diesel cars produce more toxic emissions than trucks and buses, EU study says

#100

Post by scrumper »

gambiting wrote: post #41
headmelted wrote: post #12

I'm in Northern Ireland, and while I can't speak for the rest of the UK or Europe, I know the stats put diesel vehicles at almost half in Europe as a whole. It sounds absurd, but I can see the increase in Diesel soot on the roads and pavements here, and more often than not, it can be smelt from passing traffic. To be fair, that I've become more aware of it is making me notice it more - but I live now not so far from…

It's made worse by the fact that manufacturers don't offer, or offer worse petrol engines in the UK, pushing buyers towards diesel. For the past 10 years, you couldn't buy a petrol Land Rover in the UK, despite the fact that petrol land rovers are assembled in the Sollihul plant. The Latest Discovery 5 finally has a petrol option, but the Discovery Sport is still only offered with a diesel, despite the fact that the…

A big reason for that is that company car tax (which is paid by the beneficiary, not the company) in the UK is significantly lower on diesel vehicles. Fleet buyers are a gigantic part of the market for new cars in the UK and they wield a heavy influence over manufacturers.
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