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The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

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91–100 of 108 posts

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it is a flawed utopia. Give them a planet to explore, problems to solve, predators to avoid, kin to protect, goals that must be met to survive... >NEETs may be caused by poor life prospects, not the presence of food, shelter, and internet. I am intimately familiar with NEETs, having spent years interacting with them. The pattern I have noticed is of above average intelligence, many even brilliant, who would ha…

Most jobs don't provide a push toward self-actualization. They're just repeating basic actions for hours. So now the situation is the same, except with less free time. If you want to get people out of the house and interacting, that will go a long way, and doesn't require 40 hours of drudgery.

Jobs provide the illusion of self-actualization.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#92
post #14

was just thinking about how much I despise the movie based on this book. Possibly the best piece of children’s literature that is explicitly about evolution, neuroscience and society, and they turn it into a woo-woo adventure about a MAGIC AMULET ugh. Read the book. Buy your kids the book. Terrific book.

I have the audio book, but haven't listened to it yet. This just bumped it up to the top of my queue. I felt the same way with Never Ending Story. And, as a kid, I loved that movie. Book was so much more, though. Howl's Moving Castle was one where I actually had a hard time liking more than one or two scenes of the movie, because of how much I liked the book.

I haven't seen the Howl's Moving Castle film, but I haven't liked any book by DWJ, including that one.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I said that it was. Apart from its rhetorical value, the allegory is interesting because of it raises questions concerning life-as-suffering and painful knowledge/blissful ignorance. The Matrix does a decent job of relaying both of those concepts to a mass audience. Personally, I'm not certain that humans can create a meaningful utopia. Empirically, we seem to be very bad at personally gauging our absol…

My issue with it is that it takes certain stances on those questions and then tries to answer them. I would prefer for the audience to be a bit more critical of those answers. The Hedonic Treadmill for me gets about the same treatment as Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs - it's too simplistic and the conclusions it makes are biased by the beliefs of the culture it originated in. It's fairly easy to find many questions to a…

Uncontacted native tribes emerge naked and starving from the woods. The males hunt and kill, and the women stick to domestic tasks. They like clothes, they like shoes, and they like shelter. Their behaviors and expectations are hardly that removed from ours. There is nothing wrong with subscribing to long running historical norms until they no longer satisfy you or are otherwise proven harmful.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did you know that in the original version of the Matrix motion picture, humans were grown and plugged into the Matrix so that the AIs could use their brains for complex computation? I'm not sure why they changed the script to turn the people into rechargeable batteries instead of CPUs, but it was a really bad idea to do so. They probably did it because test audiences (or maybe studio execs) didn't get the computati…

> a faulty conclusion reached by the free humans I dislike that interpretation because it's really insulting to the intelligence of those humans. (Specifically the idea that they would conclude that as a group, with years of consideration. I'm not disparaging any individual that would find it plausible.)

Well, it was clear as far back as the first movie that the free humans were getting information from some sources that were, at least, idiosyncratic; by the end it was clear that much of their information was manipulated by the machines as a means of establishing control. So, while perhaps in some ways progressively more depressing, the "'coppertop idea' as free humans getting the fundamental nature of the situation wrong" explanation, I feel, isn't insulting, and is progressively more plausible as the series progresses.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#95

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that…

Did you know that in the original version of the Matrix motion picture, humans were grown and plugged into the Matrix so that the AIs could use their brains for complex computation? I'm not sure why they changed the script to turn the people into rechargeable batteries instead of CPUs, but it was a really bad idea to do so. So now I am imagining row after row of mice in little mouse chairs, wearing tiny VR helmets, o…

> I'm not sure why they changed the script to turn the people into rechargeable batteries instead of CPUs ..

You're only partly correct. The battery story was told to the humans to blind them from the truth, which would have been revealed to us in the sequels, except in between, the Wachowskis seem to have left planet earth. The question shouldn't be what is the Matrix, but what is its purpose.

The original matrix was created by the humans, but once the Architect became self aware he hijacked it for his own purpose. The Architects true purpose in creating the Matrix was to model a piece of reality and therefore by observing that, might discover the nature of the AI that created it.

In order for the experiment to succeed everyone except the Architect had to be blinded as to its true purpose. The previous Matrices were the result of failed experiments and so had to be destroyed. As such the Architect, the Oracle, Agent Smith, Neo and the humans were engaged in some kind of gargantuan scientific experiment. You would agree the above would have made more interesting sequels.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#96

The bleakest and most compelling statement I have ever read comes from the "Death Squared" paper mentioned in the article: "For an animal so complex as man, there is no logical reason why a comparable sequence of events should not also lead to species extinction. If opportunities for role fulfillment fall far short of the demand by those capable of filling roles, and having expectancies to do so, only violence and di…

Interesting quote. Makes you think about phenomenons like young people from the developed world, highly educated, joining violent groups like ISIS.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#97

was just thinking about how much I despise the movie based on this book. Possibly the best piece of children’s literature that is explicitly about evolution, neuroscience and society, and they turn it into a woo-woo adventure about a MAGIC AMULET ugh. Read the book. Buy your kids the book. Terrific book.

This. My sister used to read "Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH" to her students and that's how I heard of it. We loved it and were furious at the film for completely inverting the author's message. In the book, Mrs. Frisbee is saved by Science (the rats) but in the film, she's saved by Magic. Yuck. The book, as I recall, also gets into the morality of giving the rats intelligence. I need to go back and read it again...

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#98
post #92
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the audio book, but haven't listened to it yet. This just bumped it up to the top of my queue. I felt the same way with Never Ending Story. And, as a kid, I loved that movie. Book was so much more, though. Howl's Moving Castle was one where I actually had a hard time liking more than one or two scenes of the movie, because of how much I liked the book.

I haven't seen the Howl's Moving Castle film, but I haven't liked any book by DWJ, including that one.

We are allowed different opinions. :)

I am curious if you have any particular reason for not liking the book.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that in the original version of the Matrix motion picture, humans were grown and plugged into the Matrix so that the AIs could use their brains for complex computation? I'm not sure why they changed the script to turn the people into rechargeable batteries instead of CPUs, but it was a really bad idea to do so. So now I am imagining row after row of mice in little mouse chairs, wearing tiny VR helmets, o…

> I'm not sure why they changed the script to turn the people into rechargeable batteries instead of CPUs .. You're only partly correct. The battery story was told to the humans to blind them from the truth, which would have been revealed to us in the sequels, except in between, the Wachowskis seem to have left planet earth. The question shouldn't be what is the Matrix, but what is its purpose. The original matrix wa…

If that is the case, why wouldn't the humans question that premise by testing out whether a live human can be a better battery than an actual battery?

If the machines needed a power buffer for their nuclear plants, they could certain mass produce lithium ion cells. Or if they really needed a bio-battery, they could use cows, which wouldn't resist so much. Or they could simply remove the parts of the human brain that cause trouble. Put every human in a persistent vegetative state by physically destroying the part of the brain that controls consciousness.

The one and only conclusion you can draw from this is that if the Matrix is a battery bank, the machines are idiots. Clearly, judging from the remainder of the script, they are not idiots. They are, in fact, quite clever. So in order for the humans to believe the Matrix is a battery bank, they have to be the idiots. They can't just be ignorant of non-human batteries, because they exist inside the Matrix program, and Morpheus actually shows one to Neo.

So the AIs would have to perform a physical surgical intervention in human brains, inserting an autonomous microsurgeon robot attached to the Matrix connection hardware that is constantly identifying the neurons activated by the concept of a computer CPU, and those activated by the concept of the human brain, and physically removing and blocking any connections between them. The Matrix connection hardware is much more precise than an fMRI, and clearly, the machines are capable of doing fine microsurgery into the human brain to install it in the first place. The Matrix-born humans then have to connect the concepts in a way that routes around the physical block in order to understand them at all. So the humans are like batteries, but they provide a different kind of power than electricity. What kind of power? I can't tell you, and even if I could, you wouldn't be able to understand it, because the machines have deliberately damaged that part of our brains. The freeborn humans of Zion actually gave us the battery metaphor, that is as close as we can physically get to understanding what the Matrix is for.

Morpheus even says, "Unfortunately, nobody can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself." If you are told, the physically enforced agnosia kicks in, and you are physically incapable of understanding what you hear. If you ever do manage to make the link, a microscopic pair of scissors inside your skull snips an axon or two, and you immediately forget it.

That's the only retcon I can come up with that doesn't make the whole battery concept sheer idiocy.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that in the original version of the Matrix motion picture, humans were grown and plugged into the Matrix so that the AIs could use their brains for complex computation? I'm not sure why they changed the script to turn the people into rechargeable batteries instead of CPUs, but it was a really bad idea to do so. So now I am imagining row after row of mice in little mouse chairs, wearing tiny VR helmets, o…

Interesting, as soon as I saw the Matrix I thought that this idea which I knew from Dan Simmon's Hyperion would have made much more sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperion_(Simmons_novel) http://hyperioncantos.wikia.com/wiki/Cruciform

The Cybercore of Hyperion is much more clever than the machines of The Matrix. Also, like the Cylons, they have some really weird religion. The true purpose of the Tree of Pain just seemed really strange to me.
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