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The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

atlasobscura.com

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Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#81

Post by projektir »

fierycatnet wrote: post #80
projektir wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Friendly reminder that this is a quote from a work of fiction. One that doesn't exactly have a lot of rigor in terms of the science/philosophy involved, really. > But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. Actually, nature had a patent on that one long before humans showed up. It's the author of that "primitive cerebrum", too. We've been spending the past however…

It is a work of fiction but it's fairly dense. One of my philosophy classes used the first Matrix to explore some philosophical themes. It's been a while for concrete examples, one of the users pointed out Plato already. And this particular quote "human beings define their reality through suffering and misery." made me think of Dostoevsky's literature for some reason.

And I don't disagree! There's nothing wrong with that device as far as fiction writing goes, it's an interesting one. I'm just pointing out that while certain events unfolded there, we should always remember that it's a work of fiction, which means it, in and of itself, is not evidence that those events would unfold that way.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#82

Post by Dylan16807 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #49
logfromblammo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that in the original version of the Matrix motion picture, humans were grown and plugged into the Matrix so that the AIs could use their brains for complex computation? I'm not sure why they changed the script to turn the people into rechargeable batteries instead of CPUs, but it was a really bad idea to do so. So now I am imagining row after row of mice in little mouse chairs, wearing tiny VR helmets, o…

> Did you know that in the original version of the Matrix motion picture, humans were grown and plugged into the Matrix so that the AIs could use their brains for complex computation? I'm not sure why they changed the script to turn the people into rechargeable batteries instead of CPUs, but it was a really bad idea to do so. They probably did it because test audiences (or maybe studio execs) didn't get the computati…

> a faulty conclusion reached by the free humans

I dislike that interpretation because it's really insulting to the intelligence of those humans. (Specifically the idea that they would conclude that as a group, with years of consideration. I'm not disparaging any individual that would find it plausible.)

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#83

Post by projektir »

woodruffw wrote: post #79
projektir wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conclusions about whether or not there is a happy utopia for humans to live in is not part of the Allegory of the Cave.

I don't think I said that it was. Apart from its rhetorical value, the allegory is interesting because of it raises questions concerning life-as-suffering and painful knowledge/blissful ignorance. The Matrix does a decent job of relaying both of those concepts to a mass audience. Personally, I'm not certain that humans can create a meaningful utopia. Empirically, we seem to be very bad at personally gauging our absol…

My issue with it is that it takes certain stances on those questions and then tries to answer them. I would prefer for the audience to be a bit more critical of those answers.

The Hedonic Treadmill for me gets about the same treatment as Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs - it's too simplistic and the conclusions it makes are biased by the beliefs of the culture it originated in. It's fairly easy to find many questions to ask and many holes to poke. A lot of "happiness" studies sadly tend to tap directly into cultural norms and expectations and are very difficult to untangle. Including the cultural norm of giving "happiness" a high value, higher than the painful knowledge you mention, for instance. One objective I would have for a utopia is that knowledge would cease to be painful. Until then, it's a lie either way, and a true utopia is not a lie.

Not to mention, if the Hedonic Treadmill is true, it's highly likely to be genetic, which is should not be an obstacle give or take a few centuries.

I would recommend against throwing out the utopian idea based on social science theories. The Hedonic Treadmill is maybe 40 years old, utopias are probably many k years in the future.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#84

Post by sandworm101 »

jhou2 wrote: post #71
sandworm101 wrote: post #43

These studies are naive in that they treat a species, mice, as a self-regulating unit. They aren't. No species exists absent other species. Mice have evolved alongside predators. Without predators, the external stimuli that has defined mice evolution, mice culture isn't sustainable. This has direct application not only in dense populations but in our relationship with other species. Our bodies and our culture has evo…

Of course. If in the experiment, they had simulated the effect of predators on the population and routinely culled the population to stay within some range, then probably the mice would have lived happily ever after generation after generation without any overcrowding and stressful effects. That entirely misses the point of the experiment. Human beings in some societies are reaching the point where disease, fatal acc…

I think it goes beyond population control. Simply removing the mice might not be enough. They have to see and fear the cat. Some have to be successful in avoiding the cat. They may develop behaviors and social order specifically to address the cat threat. Disappearing individuals randomly might have a radically unnatural impact.

With humans, it's also not as simple as population control. The presence of other species, even predators, is a cornerstone of our evolution and culture. We are afraid of the dark for a reason. We protect our kids from the unknown for a reason. We keep dogs as guards for a reason. A world truly without predators might result in very different culture. I'm often taken aback by how people who live in regions without large predators (UK, Japan) differ in their views on nature from those who walk beside predators every day (Canada/Australia).

Talk to a tourist on a beach about shark attacks. Then talk to a surfer. The former has strong opinions but isn't under any real threat. The later is often much more tolerant of sharks despite the increased risk (see Australia's shark cull debates). Even a slight but real risk of dangerous predators, imho, gives one a much greater respect for nature.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#85

Post by M_Grey »

johnfjacobi wrote: post #42
M_Grey wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...The blind forces of urbanization, flowing along the lines of least resistance, show no aptitude for creating an urban and industrial pattern that will be stable, self-sustaining, and self-renewing. On the contrary, as congestion thickens and expansion widens, both the urban and the rural landscape undergo defacement and degradation, while the unprofitable investments in the remedies…serve only to promote more of…

This article reminded me a lot of stuff written by Mumford, Jacques Ellul, and even Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber). Their stuff is worth reading. Industrial Society and Its Future http://wildism.org/rca/items/show/13 Also Ellul's The Technological Society

Thanks for the link, I haven't read that in full, just parts.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#86

Post by WilliamDhalgren »

fierycatnet wrote: post #80
projektir wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Friendly reminder that this is a quote from a work of fiction. One that doesn't exactly have a lot of rigor in terms of the science/philosophy involved, really. > But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. Actually, nature had a patent on that one long before humans showed up. It's the author of that "primitive cerebrum", too. We've been spending the past however…

It is a work of fiction but it's fairly dense. One of my philosophy classes used the first Matrix to explore some philosophical themes. It's been a while for concrete examples, one of the users pointed out Plato already. And this particular quote "human beings define their reality through suffering and misery." made me think of Dostoevsky's literature for some reason.

.. and zizek has used anything from Alien to Hitchcock to illustrate his concepts often enough. Hardly makes either a work of any particular philosophical depth - merely something one may illustrate notions with on a pop-cultural or introductory-educational level.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#88

Post by ChrisNorstrom »

I'm actually working for a group that's talking about this problem right now. Their site's not up yet (i'm working on it) but here's a sneak peak.

They've narrowed it down to Daniel Kristoff's theory of "Genetic Rot", according to the behaviors observed.

● evolution is not perfect, each generation has good genetic mutations and bad genetic mutations

● the bad genetic mututations normally die off and are weeded out of the gene pool

● fighting for resources causes natural eugenics and the betterment of a population by only the best get food and the weak dying off

● the mouse experiment basically shows how communism caused ALL mutations to continue to the next generation both good and bad.

● untill eventually an uncontrolled pattern of defective genes plagued the mice and could no longer be weeded out. This is why mice taken out of the experiment did not recover.

● resource abundance caused individual mice who never should have reproduced to reproduce introducing their defect genes into the gene pool. (most animals get a huge decrease in population after a huge increase due to over-abundance of resources)

● the mice reproduced to a point until every single mouse had bad genes and could no longer save the population

● The mouse experiment mirrors what's happening in our society right now

Also, keep in mind this is a very sanitized version of the experiment. Somewhere out there is a complete list of behaviors observed, I can't find it but altasobscura doesn't talk about the controversial findings like "gender roles broke down" and "there was an increase of homosexuality" of the mice. Basically hinting that homosexuality, gender roles, and instinct are all heavily genetic based. And bad genes can often invert or flip instinct.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#89

Post by jhallenworld »

logfromblammo wrote: post #47
rglovejoy wrote: post #29

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that…

Did you know that in the original version of the Matrix motion picture, humans were grown and plugged into the Matrix so that the AIs could use their brains for complex computation? I'm not sure why they changed the script to turn the people into rechargeable batteries instead of CPUs, but it was a really bad idea to do so. So now I am imagining row after row of mice in little mouse chairs, wearing tiny VR helmets, o…

Interesting, as soon as I saw the Matrix I thought that this idea which I knew from Dan Simmon's Hyperion would have made much more sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperion_(Simmons_novel)

http://hyperioncantos.wikia.com/wiki/Cruciform

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#90

Post by aidenn0 »

projektir wrote: post #41
rglovejoy wrote: post #29

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that…

Friendly reminder that this is a quote from a work of fiction. One that doesn't exactly have a lot of rigor in terms of the science/philosophy involved, really. > But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. Actually, nature had a patent on that one long before humans showed up. It's the author of that "primitive cerebrum", too. We've been spending the past however…

Also the same character said that mammals (excluding humans) instinctively find a balance with their surroundings, which is laughable.
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