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The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

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21–30 of 108 posts

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#21

This paints a dark picture, not only for urban life, but for basic income. What wondrous creativity will be unlocked when we no longer need to work to survive? A negative amount, if you judge by the NEETs of today. Give a man food, shelter, and internet, and he'll kill himself for you.

It doesn't paint a picture because a limited and flawed experiment should not be used to make sweeping predictions about society at large.

This is precisely why, earlier, I was against calling the setting in this experiment a utopia. It's anything but. But call it that, convince people it's actually good conditions, and then other people will run to make unfounded claims that good conditions are bad. Not to mention that basic income is not going to magically create good conditions, anyway.

NEETs may be caused by poor life prospects, not the presence of food, shelter, and internet. I imagine you have access to those things, too, so do many other people who are not NEETs. People do not do well when they feel life is pointless, and many people do just as poorly as NEETs do but you don't see them or think about them because they don't make headlines.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#23

> But the public held on hard to his earlier work—as Ramsden and Adams put it, "everyone want[ed] to hear the diagnosis, no one want[ed] to hear the cure." Was there a "cure"? The article speaks of the fashion in which his later efforts attempted to alleviate the catastrophic social problems he'd observed in his earlier utopian designs. It is craftily silent on the subject of those efforts' results.

That is shitty. We all want to know if there was a cure, and what it was, but the article doesn't tell us and claims "no one wanted to hear the cure".

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#24
post #5

Calling it a "utopia" when there's limited space and nothing to do seems a bit inaccurate.

Rats and mice don't really do much except eating, breeding, hunting and socialising.

> Rats and mice don't really do much except eating, breeding, hunting and socialising.

At least one human based model of "what rodents need" is that. Perhaps it was more an experiment on crowding than utopian needs being met.

Edit: one, not our

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#25
post #5

Calling it a "utopia" when there's limited space and nothing to do seems a bit inaccurate.

Rats and mice don't really do much except eating, breeding, hunting and socialising.

This is untrue for rats: they are very curious, intelligent creatures and need intellectual "stimulation" such as areas to explore, toys to play with, etc.

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#27

> But the public held on hard to his earlier work—as Ramsden and Adams put it, "everyone want[ed] to hear the diagnosis, no one want[ed] to hear the cure." Was there a "cure"? The article speaks of the fashion in which his later efforts attempted to alleviate the catastrophic social problems he'd observed in his earlier utopian designs. It is craftily silent on the subject of those efforts' results.

The paper they're citing mostly handwaves around the so-called "cure" as well, but that might really be for the best. It does have some more detail, though:

> In his early experiments in the outdoor pens, Calhoun had witnessed a creative act by his rats that he likened to the discovery of the wheel by man: when building a new burrow they did not simply dig out the dirt as they went, as any normal rat would do, instead they packed it into a large ball which they then rolled out. This innovation had not come from the socially dominant animals but from a highly disorganized and predominantly homosexual group of subordinates, partially withdrawn from the larger social organization. As Calhoun saw it, the repression they had suffered at the hands of their superiors had resulted in deviant, creative, and thus adaptive behaviour. Inspired by this example, in his laboratory at NIMH, Calhoun attempted to design rodent universes that would both stimulate, resulting in “creative deviants,” and ameliorate: removing the worst excesses of crowding pathology.

Probably the most direct section is this:

> Through a variety of methods, such as operant conditioning and determining which of the mice and rats could eat, sleep, live, with whom, he sought to design ever more intelligent and collaborative rodent communities, capable of withstanding ever greater degrees of density. Here, then, was the hopeful agenda: if the wrong environment would drive us to destruction, perhaps the correct environment would be our remedy.

> Calhoun suggested organizing scientists into a global, intercommunicating network composed of independent but interconnected groups and sub-groups. Only then could the necessary conceptual growth to avoid a catastrophic sink be achieved. He claimed it was “toward a concern with science as a world system which must be understood if the human race is to survive.” He saw these attempts to defer social pathology as the centerpiece and real import of his work. Here was the profit, the positive signal from the noise of the behavioral sink.

> It was in through this growth in conceptual space – enabled by the design of new buildings, new technologies, new social and intellectual networks – that humanity was presented with a more desirable future: what Calhoun called “Dawnsday” in opposition to von Foerster’s “Doomsday.” All of mankind might become part of a single “world brain,” consisting of numerous and diverse subsystems, each interlinked to, aware of, and dependent upon, the other.

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/22514/1/2308Ramadams.pdf

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#28
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point but In its natural environment they do so much more. Search for the food, avoid weather, avoid predators etc. I think perhaps when those stresses are taken away it goes counter to their instincts and "wiring" causing problems.

I wonder what that could mean for us as humans. Is some degree of "strife" necessary in society for people to be happier? Perhaps our work to eliminate many of the more primal issues that affect us (the need to hunt, survive in the wild, etc) are only making us worse off? It would be interesting to hear more about this, as well as what the potential "cures" may be, as alluded to at the end of the article.

I wouldn't say "strife" but perhaps "challenges". I think things like a wander-year, self-initiated long-term projects, like starting a business, writing a program, building something architecturally, making a short film, etc.

There's plenty of "strife" in day to day life, some other jerks on the road, to your co-workers, to your friends and family. Or just working on your long term goals and dreams in the face of the demands of every day life.

I don't think human conflict or violence is necessary for flourishing.

There are examples of great creative people who had come from backgrounds of violence or abuse, but I don't think that means much. If they were exposed to more violence, would they have been even more genius? What is the right amount of violence to expose people to to have genius blossom?

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#29
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization." - Agent Smith

Re: The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the 'Rats of NIMH'

#30

This paints a dark picture, not only for urban life, but for basic income. What wondrous creativity will be unlocked when we no longer need to work to survive? A negative amount, if you judge by the NEETs of today. Give a man food, shelter, and internet, and he'll kill himself for you.

It doesn't paint a picture because a limited and flawed experiment should not be used to make sweeping predictions about society at large. This is precisely why, earlier, I was against calling the setting in this experiment a utopia. It's anything but. But call it that, convince people it's actually good conditions, and then other people will run to make unfounded claims that good conditions are bad. Not to mention t…

Indeed it is a flawed utopia. Give them a planet to explore, problems to solve, predators to avoid, kin to protect, goals that must be met to survive...

>NEETs may be caused by poor life prospects, not the presence of food, shelter, and internet.

I am intimately familiar with NEETs, having spent years interacting with them. The pattern I have noticed is of above average intelligence, many even brilliant, who would have thrived if the world had only given them a push, but left to their own devices commit slow, masturbatory suicides.

Some people can invent purpose from thin air. This is especially common amongst the kinds of elites and academics that most eloquently advocate basic income. But the vast majority of us cannot any more than a mouse. Most insidious is that even those for whom purpose is closest to grasp lose their drive. The artists lose the joy of painting and the programmers never begin their projects.

The true utopia is the harsh, cruel world of nature that provides purpose to every living thing.

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