What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population • Hacker News Board

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#91

Post by kgwgk » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #62

lorenzhs wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you need to consider purchasing power parity. In many European countries, these things are paid out of taxes (but also provided at a lower cost in total), so you can't just deduct/ignore them.

We pay taxes in the US as well :-) Maybe a bit less than in Europe, but we get very little in return (no subsidized daycare, no 30 days of vacation, etc). US tax revenue is mostly spent on maintaining all the 170+ military bases around the world, aircraft carriers, nuclear weapons, etc.

What do you think is the relation between vacation days and taxes?

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#92

Post by Grishnakh » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #22

cookiecaper wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The things you mention -- gatekeepers with teeth -- are a nightmare. They have eviscerated the medical and legal professions to the point of self-parody. They exist to keep otherwise qualified people out explicitly because they want to keep their wages high.

That's uncharitable. They exist to keep quacks away - both professions are extremely sensitive and prone to fakery.

>They exist to keep quacks away

No, actually they don't. Chiropractors are still practicing, and in huge numbers, and probably gaining in popularity, and they don't just do chiropractic these days, they also do homeopathy, "supplements", and various other bogus remedies. "Naturopathic" doctors are also a big thing. There's no shortage of quackery in the medical field.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#93

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:11 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #92

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's uncharitable. They exist to keep quacks away - both professions are extremely sensitive and prone to fakery.

>They exist to keep quacks away No, actually they don't. Chiropractors are still practicing, and in huge numbers, and probably gaining in popularity, and they don't just do chiropractic these days, they also do homeopathy, "supplements", and various other bogus remedies. "Naturopathic" doctors are also a big thing. There's no shortage of quackery in the medical field.

Chiropractors still need to be licensed.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#94

Post by Grishnakh » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #93

Grishnakh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They exist to keep quacks away No, actually they don't. Chiropractors are still practicing, and in huge numbers, and probably gaining in popularity, and they don't just do chiropractic these days, they also do homeopathy, "supplements", and various other bogus remedies. "Naturopathic" doctors are also a big thing. There's no shortage of quackery in the medical field.

Chiropractors still need to be licensed.

How does that help things? I can easily find you a licensed chiropractor who will "diagnose" your ailments by just pushing down on your outstretched arm while holding a supplement or homeopathic remedy in front of you to determine if that supplement will fix the problem or not. I won't even get into "subluxations".

And because that chiropractor is licensed by the State, the State government is explicitly endorsing this doctor's medicine and all the "theory" that backs it.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#95

Post by foobarrio » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:31 PM UTC

I clicked around the PayScale and IMF pages and could not find how they define "Software Engineer". Is this the same as "Programmer" or "Software Developer"? These titles are quite broad in some places. For example where I sit now, we are all "programmers". However one of our programmers is a CPA + some other certs and spends as much time talking to accountants, lawyers, reading IRS notices as she does spec'ing out and developing software. Is she a "Software Engineer"? I spend most of my time fixing bugs and operating our software systems does that make me a "Software Engineer"? I program a lot sometimes but I'd hardly call what I do engineering. I'm in the U.S. and we don't have formal engineering accreditation for software.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#96

Post by retbull » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #63

frogpelt wrote: post #18

Is it meaningful to compare the median annual income of software engineers to the average annual income of the general population? I'm legitimately curious, what is the statistical significance of an average versus a median?

To understand the significance, lets start by considering that the top 1% earn about 20% of the total income, and 60% of the lowest earners only have about 4.2% of the total income. If you remove both those extremes, then average and median becomes somewhat closer to each other.

If you removee the bottom 60% of people you aren't representing what is happening very well.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#97

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

nibs wrote: post #50

emodendroket wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's right. A plumber or home health aide is pretty useful too.

I think it depends on the circles you travel in - those are the professions the most practical/dependable people from my area went into, so from my perspective they do get status to a certain degree, at least from my friends. There will always be the illusory gap between blue vs. white collar workers.

Yes, but why should that be the case, is the question. I read an article I think was linked here arguing exactly the opposite -- that the less real utility a profession provided the higher the pay and the higher the esteem.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#98

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:57 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #56

emodendroket wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. That's a rather eccentric understanding of "working-class," which typically refers to blue collar workers.

It's not that eccentric. For instance, Marx didn't look just at what the job involved but at the terms of employment. In his terms, programmers making some of the highest salaries are still working class because they are paid a wage by a corporation. A plumber operating a business by would be middle class in the same system (they are working for themselves). There are ways in which those distinctions are much more in…

Well, Marx has more nuanced categories than just wage earners and capitalists. The professional class doesn't have class interests that are identical to those of manual laborers.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#99

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:58 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #58

emodendroket wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers are not "working class." Where did you get that idea?

From the number of women interested in dating him, that's where. Women go gaga to date a doctor, but they're about as interested in a software engineer as they are a plumber.

I feel like there are some confounding factors here beyond just the work itself

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#100

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:59 PM UTC

hiram112 wrote: post #64

emodendroket wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. That's a rather eccentric understanding of "working-class," which typically refers to blue collar workers.

I agree that "working class" has typically, in the US at least, referred to blue collar workers. OTOH, as more and more blue collar type jobs are being obsoleted by machines, I think we're coming up upon a more modern definition of working class: those who do not derive profits from their actual value-add. For example, most other 'professional' type jobs - finance, law, medicine, etc. - typically have a well defined…

There's a big gulf between wage earners and everyone else, but, as I said to the other guy, the professional class and manual laborers don't have identical interests (for instance, which group is more likely to support a free-trade agreement that will cause US factories to shutter but drive down the prices of consumer goods?).