What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population
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Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Off topic, but I must: comparing salaries alone makes no sense. In Europe, you don't have to pay $250K/child for college education, you don't have to pay $20K/year/family in health insurance, etc.
Well you need to consider purchasing power parity. In many European countries, these things are paid out of taxes (but also provided at a lower cost in total), so you can't just deduct/ignore them.
Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population
#63Is it meaningful to compare the median annual income of software engineers to the average annual income of the general population? I'm legitimately curious, what is the statistical significance of an average versus a median?
If you remove both those extremes, then average and median becomes somewhat closer to each other.
Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Keep in mind that there's lots of different definitions of classes. Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. In general it's probably more interesting to discuss the various things people use to differentiate roles than it is to argue about what words should be used to describe the roles.
> Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. That's a rather eccentric understanding of "working-class," which typically refers to blue collar workers.
OTOH, as more and more blue collar type jobs are being obsoleted by machines, I think we're coming up upon a more modern definition of working class: those who do not derive profits from their actual value-add.
For example, most other 'professional' type jobs - finance, law, medicine, etc. - typically have a well defined career path where you're used and abused when young, but typically get to share in the profits once you make partner or senior level.
OTOH, most engineers will max out at about $100K-$160K based on location, and will never share in any profits or income. Realize that Google and Facebook are not typical when you consider the millions of engineers working in mostly typical cost-based positions for insurance companies, banks, and other non SV companies.
Obviously, $150K is much better than the other 'service' workers making half that, but we're moving closer and closer to becoming a 'working-class' type profession instead of one that's respected /w regard to both pay and societal treatment.
Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
A lot of software engineers are autodidacts and never graduated in IT. I didn't (I have an MA in politics, obviously irrelevant to my profession). In general unemployment in IT is very low, and there's always a shortage of programmers, so job security is clearly above average. (And government administrations have IT departments, too). It's supply vs. demand, that's all there is to it. I'm not buying any of the above…
While there is a segment of autodidacts, it's not like people can become expert software developers overnight. Software developers work longer hours. I've never been in an environment where developers hang their coats up at 5:00 and go on with their carefree lives. And while unemployment may be low in IT, developers do not enjoy job security.
Agreed. Plus, learning in this trade is a job never done. It's not like once you get a foot in the door (and land a job), you're set for life.
> Software developers work longer hours.
I can't speak for the US, but it doesn't seem to be the case in Europe. I live and work in Poland, I kind of know the job market in the UK and Germany.
> And while unemployment may be low in IT, developers do not enjoy job security.
Well, relative job security. Not neccessarily in terms of any single job being safe and granted, but there's a rather slim chance of getting stranded between jobs.
Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population
#66Peculiarly, in Romania, the median income of a software dev is 0.7 times the average income whereas in neighbouring Bulgaria, the factor is 3.2. Does anybody have an idea why?
Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population
#67Is it meaningful to compare the median annual income of software engineers to the average annual income of the general population? I'm legitimately curious, what is the statistical significance of an average versus a median?
Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
The things you mention -- gatekeepers with teeth -- are a nightmare. They have eviscerated the medical and legal professions to the point of self-parody. They exist to keep otherwise qualified people out explicitly because they want to keep their wages high.
That's uncharitable. They exist to keep quacks away - both professions are extremely sensitive and prone to fakery.
In fact, the AMA was originally founded to keep mid-wives from taking a cut of their most lucrative child-birthing business. They are one of the biggest lobbying organizations in the country after the military industrial complex. Along with the Bar Association, Teachers and Police Unions, and financial organizations, the AMA proudly proclaims that their goal is to enforce 'quality' standards for the good of the public. Don't fall for the spin.
We software engineers currently lack the social intelligence to realize how bad we're getting screwed, which is ironic considering the technical prowess we've collectively got.
Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story I see this kind of Rodney Dangerfield sentiment a lot on HN but it has never made a lick of sense to me (especially the "pretty much working class" variety). And also if software engineers want to get into the "doctors and lawyers" category we need to start doing doctory and lawyery thin…
The things you mention -- gatekeepers with teeth -- are a nightmare. They have eviscerated the medical and legal professions to the point of self-parody. They exist to keep otherwise qualified people out explicitly because they want to keep their wages high.
Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
The things you mention -- gatekeepers with teeth -- are a nightmare. They have eviscerated the medical and legal professions to the point of self-parody. They exist to keep otherwise qualified people out explicitly because they want to keep their wages high.
That's uncharitable. They exist to keep quacks away - both professions are extremely sensitive and prone to fakery.
Of course, the superficial justification is that if you don't go to school for 8 years and pay $150k+ into the education industry before you can get a crack at real work, then it's because you're a fraud who wants to fleece the general populous. There is obviously going to be a surface justification. However, many lawyers are still primarily interested in fleecing people, and the artifical barriers to entrance probably only serve to further incentivize it; that's a big chunk of debt hanging over one guy's head.
Suppose he wanted to undercut his competition and offer meaningful legal services that a normal person could actually afford; oops, he needs to bill $200/hr because after overhead, 65% of that goes to his student loan payments. :|
However, I'm sure that the ABA and AMA do not function at all like unions and are run by truly beautiful people with stunningly pure hearts who would never put their own self-interest above the general welfare. I am sure the strength of their character fully precludes any attempt to keep competition low and/or to make the minimum viable price point of the profession artificially high. Such a thing would serve only to enrich them and their compatriots while blanket disqualifying large chunks of people that would otherwise make great lawyers and/or doctors, and of course, the people in charge would never even fathom something like that.