What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives • Hacker News Board

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#91

Post by friendzis » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 8:25 AM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #25

friendzis wrote: post #10

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

"Temporary" can mean decades. How many wars have had a predictable timeframe? As a child of refugees and having hung around quite a lot of immigrants, I think the biggest impediment to building a new life is the idea that you're going back. I hear this story all the time, from some kid whose parents insist they learn the old language and act like people from the old country, because in just a few years they'll be mov…

You are right that conflicts may last decades. But that does not mean we can accept anyone, give them housing and leave it to magical integration. We absolutely need a "staging environment" where these people can stay safe, warm and fed and more importantly show willingness to both work and integrate. I'm not against accepting fleeing people that are willing to settle and accept new culture. But I think it is a bad idea to just take all these people, dump somewhere inside EU with documents and call it a day. Currently the problem is scale - current measures are not designed for such a scale and will fail

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#92

Post by bordercases » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 8:25 AM UTC

Steko wrote: post #72

Yetanfou wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denying a problem does not solve it. Please read up on those statistics before you start wielding terms like 'FUD'. The 'U' in this case in not justified as it is known that non-western immigrants are heavily overrepresented in crime statistics. Neither is the 'D', for the same reasons. The mere fact that a large part of the immigrants will not commit crimes does not mean you should ignore or talk down the crimes per…

No one is saying don't talk about the issue. People are pointing out that "rape town!" poisons the well on serious debate. Come on.

Would I have been better off if I just said "(rape!)" (i.e. remove "town")? Just saying "sex market imbalance" felt too P.C. when the real consequence I was trying to emphasize was yeah, guys are going to behave sexually aggressively towards women when they're economically starving and there are more guys than there are women to go around.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#93

Post by LoSboccacc » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 8:26 AM UTC

tobr wrote: post #59

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unfortunately the documented behaviour of the last waves of immigrants on their way to Germany does little to appease these fears

Please stop the FUD. It's true that immigrants are over-represented in crime statistics, but that is both as victims and perpetrators, and it must be understood in the light of their socioeconomic status. Regardless, >99% of the people who are coming to Europe right now are not future rapists.

> 99% of the people

according to whom? you don't get to claim FUD and make up bullshit in the same argument

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#94

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 8:28 AM UTC

NietTim wrote: post #60

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

> I don't know how the Europeans intend to get all of these refugee adults up to economic snuff at the same grade of Europeans who were trained in the ways of the West from birth. We are not, they are refugees, not immigrants

they became economic immigrants in the moment they left first safe country after leaving Syria. c'mon, we all know they aren't going to Germany because it's the only place in this world to escape war back home.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#95

Post by zenlot » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 8:33 AM UTC

Just people from Syria are in the photos. I guess the authors spend really hard time to find the ones from Syria, as the number of those is very very small comparing to those illegal migrants from Pakistan, Iran, etc... Please stop using word refugees. It has real meaning which in this situation 99 times of 100 does not apply.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#96

Post by LoSboccacc » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 8:35 AM UTC

friendzis wrote: post #10

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

> nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats

Big fallacy here: Italy is forced to take on all migrants that even come close to Italian soil. We cannot respond with force (of course) and we cannot catch them all. We also are forced to evaluate all their asylum request fairly and we have to deal with loads of them that just refuse self identification making the process long and costly.

> I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims 'War victims' is used by every single one of them because it's the only way in. Problem is, how do you grant asylum and which resource do you use for it? Current international agreements afaik puts all the costs on the landing nation. Problem is, they want southern country to have higher safety and better controls and all that, but noone wants to pay for it.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#97

Post by zensavona » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 8:37 AM UTC

Yetanfou wrote: post #75

Steko wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouting 'rape town!' helps though, gotcha!

That is what you get when a normal, level-headed discussion on a subject is not allowed. Merely breaching the subject in public invites accusations of racism, xenophobia and discrimination. That is not helpful as it is clear that the problem does exist. That problem needs to be solved, not ignored or hidden under a false blanket of understanding. A crime is a crime, no matter whether the perpetrator is a native-born…

Yes but you can't say that because we have built such a PC hugbox of a world that nobody wants to hear it.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#98

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 8:41 AM UTC

thescriptkiddie wrote: post #11

friendzis wrote: post #10

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

Ignoring the crisis wouldn't make it go away. Maybe it is possible to keep the refugees out, but that doesn't help them . The whole world has an obligation to help these people.

well if whole world has this obligation, I please our US friends to accept a mere million or two of these refugees. just for next 20 years. surely a drop in the ocean, especially since all this mess is directly caused by US war failures in neighboring Iraq, and refusing to wipe off ISIS to oblivion

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#99

Post by Steko » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 8:44 AM UTC

bordercases wrote: post #92

Steko wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is saying don't talk about the issue. People are pointing out that "rape town!" poisons the well on serious debate. Come on.

Would I have been better off if I just said "(rape!)" (i.e. remove "town")? Just saying "sex market imbalance" felt too P.C. when the real consequence I was trying to emphasize was yeah, guys are going to behave sexually aggressively towards women when they're economically starving and there are more guys than there are women to go around.

I believe "rape!" is nearly as bad as it's still just charged invective. A more neutral construction would be something like, 'leading to an increase in ' and I would have no objection to that.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#100

Post by vixen99 » Wed, Sep 16, 2015, 8:48 AM UTC

Squarel wrote: post #48

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

I saw the data you linked, but I don't see the "poor". From what I see, they make up a range of demographics and educational levels. As to why they did not bring their families over in the first place? That is usually because they want to make sure they have somewhere to stay before bringing their families over. Bigger picture. The population of Europe as a whole is 740 million or so. Even if the entire population of…

Why don't you mention the predominant religion of the migrants and culture shock? Islam is a way of life not just a religion. Literally following the Koran is not compatible with life in the West as indeed with the Christian Bible. You soon get arrested in the UK for proclaiming statements from the Bible (on homosexuality for instance). Interestingly, not so if the text is the Koran. But that's another matter.