A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#891

Post by ryanbrunner » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #828

minimuffins wrote: post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in film and TV unions aren't actors.

The other unions are even harder to get into. At least occasionally a casting director will insist on a non-SAG actor. Many of the other unions are effectively impossible to get into except via their apprenticeship programs. Similar to the physician cartel ...

Honestly, an apprenticeship model is probably fairly well suited for a lot of types of software development. In my mind it's superior to a CS degree or bootcamp in terms of teaching practical skills.

There's definitely challenges in not turning it into a protectionist thing, but done well I don't think it's a bad thing.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#892

Post by wolfretcrap » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:19 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Thing is tho leaders of any organization can always be bought even if you can't buy each and ever leader all you need to do is

a) put democratic process

b) buy majority of the leader or minority is veto is available to influence a particular decision.

A large fraction of a group can easily be bought by direct or indirect transfer of common human motivation like wealth, power, social validation, sex (maybe given them access to your currated harem), maybe promise them after retirement job or give referral to one of his kids or pay for his education abroad.

The transfer doesn't need to be direct so many times it's hard to trace what got what and why they influenced a particular decision.

This is why such organizations where you elect leaders will never give you those who want to do good for the society at large.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#893

Post by dogprez » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:19 PM UTC

theravengod wrote: post #453

WTH? Most people here don't know recent US history anymore ? Just look at what unions did to the people of Detroit ? Sure, on paper it seems like a good idea to fight the rich company to give employees a bigger share of the profit, but do remember: it's not the employee that decides how much profit is enough for the company to have. If the investors/CEO/boss doesn't feel the profit is enough, they/he/she can close th…

Bay Area SWE from Flint, MI here.

> on paper it seems like a good idea to fight the rich company to give employees a bigger share of the profit

That is explicitly a non-goal of this union.

> Just look at what unions did to the people of Detroit

Let's say for argument's sake that the UAW wasn't formed, the Great Sitdown Strike just lead to policy changes (hard to imagine after how they were treated). Do you think the auto companies would have been as successful without the quality of life the UAW afforded its members? Anecdotally, my uneducated grandfather immigrated to the states for one of those jobs. Do you think that the auto companies still wouldn't have moved production overseas to maximize their profits? Even without the UAW, a job in Mexico still paid a fraction of an American job in the 70s.

> Also they can leave

If your gripe is that your work is now being used in a context you find ethically wrong (like Project Maven), moving companies doesn't solve the problem. Voting with your feet doesn't make any positive change, it just leaves you at the least problematic workplace.

> Twisting the arm of the boss to give you more, when has that worked in the long run ?

I don't know. I guess when it resulted in political action like the 40hr 5dy workweek? Honestly, I don't know though.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#894

Post by umvi » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:20 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #861

pwned1 wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the cart before the horse. Tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out, and then present me with a take it or leave it contract months later. And I'm stuck.

I (from the UK) don't understand: you don't have to join a union. Keep your current contract and don't have a say in Union representation and negotiation, if that's what you want. It's 'take greater combined power against the corporation you work for' (and in things like representation of your industry before government) or stand on your own as you do now. I don't understand how it's possible to lose? You can even wi…

> I (from the UK) don't understand: you don't have to join a union. Keep your current contract and don't have a say in Union representation and negotiation, if that's what you want.

That's not how American unions work. If you don't join the union, you can't work there.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#895

Post by Apocryphon » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:21 PM UTC

Shish2k wrote: post #706

subsubzero wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve Agree, things that a union can address: - Pay transparency, Have detailed info about pay bands, and ensure some new hire from a hot company doing the same job as you is not making 2-3x your salary. - Broken promotion process, at my company promotion is completely…

> Unions could fix [tech interviews] Is the problem really “we know how to fix tech interviews, but the upper management don’t like it”? Going by HN discussion I thought that the problem was “There are tens of totally different interview methods, everybody thinks one method is obviously the best and all the others suck, but nobody can agree on which one method that is”, and I’m not sure how a union would fix that :P

Well, as much as people hate certification and standardization in this industry, even something as simple as "a tech union or the IEEE or Triplebyte produces a standard algorithms /data structures interview exam, candidates take that once and are certified for at least 5-10 years, and technical interviews then become more domain-specific or at least less academic", could be a nice alternative to the status quo.

Go through the Leetcode gauntlet once and get credentialed then, instead of every single time you want to change a job, with multiple prospective employers.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#896

Post by tomohawk » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:23 PM UTC

It's sad that they're using card checks instead of secret ballots for the effort. Card checks are a tried and true method organizers use to intimidate people.

Source: several family members worked in union shops. In many cases, they were forced to be part of the union to have a job.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#897

Post by natalyarostova » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:23 PM UTC

jjcon wrote: post #768

ahepp wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing has software engineer unions. They start at like, ~$70k and after a few years can get up to ~$90k (someone correct me if I'm off, but I don't think I'm very far off).

So like half what Google pays? How much does their Union take?

Half... lol

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#898

Post by sulam » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:27 PM UTC

halflings wrote: post #785

sulam wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

s/260/120/

"Google employs more than 130,000 contractors and temp workers, a shadow work force that outnumbers its 123,000 full-time" [1] 130K+123K = 253K (article from May, likely closer to 260K now) One of the main points this group is making is that they want to equally represent fulltime employees and contractors. "All Alphabet workers deserve a voice: full-time employees, temporary employees, contractors, and vendors. We c…

That's a noble goal, but one of the reasons companies hire contractors is to give themselves flexibility. Often they aren't even the company on the pay check the contractor receives. I fully support contractors and employees being treated fairly in the workplace, but it's not reasonable to expect them to be treated with full equality.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#899

Post by umvi » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

minimuffins wrote: post #788

ransom1538 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unintended consequences 1. Fat cats. What are the due fees? %1 now?, later then? %5 of gross annually? 200 people * 300k year * %5 of salary = 3 million. They will use this on fancy dinners with Google execs? Or spend it in "wrongful terminations" law suites with google for years? What happens when 50x more join. 2. Who runs it? Will it be a 10 year long president? What is her union salary? A non-google person? Will…

These are all real problems, especially in a lot of today's older unions that have been completely hollowed out and have become a kind of do-nothing "labor aristocracy." They don't function as democratic institutions serving laborers' interests anymore, only their own narrow, elite, institutional needs--often institutional self-preservation at the expense of their members' interests. They're decrepit, corrupt dinosau…

> I still want better working conditions though, for me and for everybody. What do you suggest?

Well, a re-brand for one. Don't call it a "union". Call it something else if it is something else. If you make a union patterned after traditional ones, why shouldn't it become a corrupt entity 50 years later just like all the current corrupt unions?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#900

Post by umvi » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

ProofByAccident wrote: post #888

nitrogen wrote: post #834

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long will it be before I have to wait for a union React dev to open a PR on the frontend as a backend dev, and a union DBA to write a new SELECT statement for me, and a union CSS dev to shift a header three pixels to the right, and a union mathematician to approve my simple arithmetic ?

Why not join now and help steer the union away from that future?

Because I don't want to be politically involved in steering the future of yet anther organization. I want to program. I have enough trouble staying informed enough to steer the futures of my state and federal governments.