A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#801

Post by stale2002 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

thesuitonym wrote: post #749

pwned1 wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the cart before the horse. Tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out, and then present me with a take it or leave it contract months later. And I'm stuck.

You would have a part in shaping the contract, though. And if you don't like it, yeah, leave the union, you're no worse off than you were before.

> if you don't like it, yeah, leave the union, you're no worse off than you were before.

Completely false. With the ways that union laws work, if the majority of workers at a company unionize, then I have no choice but to be subject to their contract and fees.

Most tech companies are not in right to work states, so I'd have to go along with the contract.

That is how I would be worse off.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#802

Post by ahepp » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:28 PM UTC

labcomputer wrote: post #747

ahepp wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what mechanism will salaries fall? And thus by what mechanism will SWE unions keep salaries high, but gates open?

Salaries would fall due to increased supply. A union would keep salaries high by not keeping the gates open (if it were modeled on the film industry unions).

This is what I'd consider the "traditional" answer to the function of a union. I think it makes plenty of sense.

The parent comment seemed to me to suggest that a union would both keep the door open and the price high, and I don't see any clear way a union would do that.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#803

Post by salmon30salmon » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

azernik wrote: post #727

lliamander wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least an idea of what they are trying to bargain for would be nice.

They have a website with a platform and priorities at https://alphabetworkersunion.org/power/why/ "We want to wield our power to ensure: * Our working conditions are inclusive and fair, * Perpetrators of harassment, abuse, discrimination, and retaliation are held accountable, * We have the freedom to decline to work on projects that don’t align with our values, * All workers, regardless of employment status, can enjo…

Our working conditions are inclusive and fair

How does one define "inclusive and fair". Who decides what is inclusive? The Union? I don't want to apply the fallacy of inclusion, but if someone wears a crucifix and that makes an atheist feel excluded, who is right? I know "the Union will decide" but tyranny of the majority is a real thing. See the ban on burkas/hijabs in many "inclusive" countries.

Also, if you are appealing to the public, saying that the working conditions at Google, where you are paid near the top 1% of the all workers and have free food etc, "working conditions" might not be the right term.

We have the freedom to decline to work on projects that don’t align with our values

When do you declare your values? Is it always a moving target? To be a conscientious objector in the United States, there needs to be a demonstrable history of your objection. You can't get drafted and then suddenly find religion. How do you stop the inevitable abuse of this exclusion?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#804

Post by minimuffins » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #765

labcomputer wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is because those unions are serving a very different purpose to the stereotypical union some engineers seem to fear. [...] I think there's another purpose of the film industry unions that doesn't get mentioned much in these (tech industry) discussions. Specifically, that the film unions raise wages by limiting the number of people who enter the industry. It's simple supply and demand. This works via the follow…

> I don't know whether something like that would work in the software industry, but it seems at least plausible to me that it could benefit everyone who is currently employed in tech (at the expense of future potential tech employees). I doubt it, if only because actors are hired in large part due to their celebrity. There are no celebrity SREs (at best they have some cache in the software/SRE community, but not in t…

Most people in film and TV unions aren't actors.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#805

Post by ergocoder » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

azernik wrote: post #727

lliamander wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least an idea of what they are trying to bargain for would be nice.

They have a website with a platform and priorities at https://alphabetworkersunion.org/power/why/ "We want to wield our power to ensure: * Our working conditions are inclusive and fair, * Perpetrators of harassment, abuse, discrimination, and retaliation are held accountable, * We have the freedom to decline to work on projects that don’t align with our values, * All workers, regardless of employment status, can enjo…

Thank you for, at least, hypothesizing the benefits, so we can have a proper discussion.

The top two seem fine, but Google is one of the best places to work at on the planet. But I don't mind it being improved.

The fourth one is really just a compensation package. I don't agree that every job should have the same compensation/benefits.

The third one is what I oppose. If you don't want to work on a project, then don't. I don't want to work in a trash dump (oh the pay is great too), so I don't.

I'm also certain that the fourth one will be weaponized and use for deplatforming people.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#806

Post by lawnchair_larry » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

runawaybottle wrote: post #139

avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Most union power comes from solidarity. If the Google people feel they don’t need unions, then all other lower unions are weaker. The power comes from the industry wide union. People at small startups can stand up for something because even the Google people stand up for it. Otherwise we’re divided and carry out the dog eat dog world. Edit: To all the skeptics, look, out of all the thousands of tech companies, how bu…

Why would you even want to try it? Have you personally been abused in some way that you think a union would have prevented?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#807

Post by antisoeu » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

kanbara wrote: post #593

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the detail that most people miss: Unions don’t protect the general public against a company. They protect the ranking members of a company. That means the union also protects members of the company from the general public who might be looking to take their job by offering to work harder or better or cheaper. If you’re a young person getting started in this industry it might be fun to imagine working in a unio…

Um... in germany works councils don't get rid of young people because they want to protect their senior ranks. First: it's really hard to get fired in germany, almost impossible. Second: they help formulate who gets laid off when, when there are layoffs, and prioritise people who can and will find a job more easily. So young people and people without families. This is because older people are more vulnerable to discr…

Don't you notice that you contradict yourself? You claim they don't decide who gets fired, and in the next paragraph you explain that they will get younger people fired, because they are presumed to have an easier time finding new jobs.

"They" help formulate - I don't think the young people who get fired belong to the "they" very much. Otherwise, again, there would be no need for unions. The young people would just volunteer to quit for the sake of the old people.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#808

Post by spicyramen » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

Downvote me if you want, but as a SWE I find my job very highly rewarded both economically and technically. I'm happy where I am and in my team. I'm a minority and I have study all my life to be competitive, I have been treated fairly because of my skills. Free food, gym, coffee, stocks, high salaries, mobility, not sure I can ask for more

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#809

Post by fnovd » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

andobando wrote: post #781

This is quoted form a different article, but am I the only one who sympathizes with this? >Everyone at Alphabet — from bus drivers to programmers, from salespeople to janitors — plays a critical part in developing our technology. But right now, a few wealthy executives define what the company produces and how its workers are treated. This isn’t the company we want to work for. We care deeply about what we build and w…

The "few wealthy executives" are the ones ensuring that the work of the bus drivers, programmers, salespeople, and janitors is rewarded with cold, hard cash instead of empty promises and platitudes. How many $250k+ TC employees can be sustained by a company that refuses to do the "dirty work" of the DoD, that takes an ethical stance against the very anti-privacy technology that drives the profitability behind their inflated salaries?

"Having your cake and eating it, too" barely fits here, it's more like showing up to a fancy steakhouse and demanding that their best cut stop coming from poor innocent cows. If you want to be a vegan, you're free to go do that; yelling at the evil chefs, butchers, and farmers to stop hurting cows while they prepare the sirloin you're paying them for is just absurd.

If you want to work in a mission-focused environment, you can join the rest of us who took a pay cut to work on projects that let us go to sleep at night with that warm and fuzzy feeling. If you're not willing to give up the blood money, then it goes without saying that There Will Be Blood

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#810

Post by RichardCA » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

thu2111 wrote: post #565

pentagrama wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are "Red scare" for many. I thinks it comes down to ideology. Pro capitalists view unions with skepticism or hostility because challenges the system, pro socialists view as a way to fight the power structures and injustice. Other people just don't want to be involved in unions because is a sensitive topic and are afraid to lost their jobs.

Nobody in this union is going to fight against "injustice". Look at their list of demands. It's indeed a red scare because they are really, really red. For example, refusing to work with the defence industry - which country in the world would benefit most from a damaged US/European military? China! We can see what kind of union this is by the fact that: 1. They aren't going to try and bargain collectively 2. Their an…

The whole point of unions is that no one is subject to the vagaries of summary termination. But don't worry, I'm not holding my breath on this.

But the left/right pendulum swings both ways. It would also protect people from the next kerfuffle over Cancel Culture.

People should have the right to not be threatened with the removal of their livelihood for arbitrary reasons. I mean, there's nothing unreasonable in that position, and its merits can be examined outside of the left/right lens.