A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#591

Post by jskell725 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

thebean11 wrote: post #535

marcinzm wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me that the organizers are using a union to push their own personal agendas (which they otherwise don't have the power to push) which seems like the perfect way to form a corrupt union that harms workers.

What agendas would a union push, other than the personal agendas of its members?

As an outside observer, I'd expect a "union" to push an agenda of fair compensation for it's workers and an end to abusive practices from management. This "personal agenda", as you correctly term it, feels more like a political party than a workers' union.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#592

Post by pwned1 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:36 PM UTC

thesuitonym wrote: post #538

finnthehuman wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions Because everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, and the structural changes to the workplaces that are inherent with unionization. And if/when I/others start spitballing about what those might be we're treated like dolts uneducated on organized labor, and should just…

>tell me what the terms of the contract will be and I'll decide for myself. Nobody can tell you what the contract will be because the contract won't be drawn up until the union exists and has enough members to bargain. What you DO know is the current contract you have. You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract. You DO know that a…

Sounds like the cart before the horse. Tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out, and then present me with a take it or leave it contract months later. And I'm stuck.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#593

Post by kanbara » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:36 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #438

antisoeu wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany unions (in tech) will for example make sure that older employees can't be fired, so the younger employees will be fired instead. So I don't think you can simply claim they are beneficial for everybody.

This is the detail that most people miss: Unions don’t protect the general public against a company. They protect the ranking members of a company. That means the union also protects members of the company from the general public who might be looking to take their job by offering to work harder or better or cheaper. If you’re a young person getting started in this industry it might be fun to imagine working in a unio…

Um... in germany works councils don't get rid of young people because they want to protect their senior ranks.

First: it's really hard to get fired in germany, almost impossible.

Second: they help formulate who gets laid off when, when there are layoffs, and prioritise people who can and will find a job more easily. So young people and people without families. This is because older people are more vulnerable to discrimination.

This is what a society does to protect each other and to use power against a company because the employer-employee relationship is adversarial. Unions don't exist to protect the brass, i don't even know what you're on about

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#594

Post by xyzelement » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

ruph123 wrote: post #465

xyzelement wrote: post #433

I made this point on HN before but I think it applies here. The world breaks out into two types of employers: those who try to hire outstanding people and go above and beyond for them, with the expectation that one of the attributes of these outstanding employees is that they likewise go above and beyond for the company. The alternative is employees who treat their employees like cattle and the employees treat the em…

What a naive world view is this to think that a large enough company goes “above and beyond” for their employees... As a German these American work ethics are so weird to me. You are being put on a stick and held over a bon fire and all you do is scream “turn me quicker“! What life is this to work your ass off for a company that demands crazy work hours, that can fire you for any reason with laughable notice period,…

As the other comment points out, literally none of what you said applies to Google.

Your logic is something like this: because someone somewhere is in a bad marriage, everyone including people in great marriages should treat their spouse like an adversary.

My point is behaving like this will just ruin great marriages/employment relationships (obviously.)

I don't know what you being German and being depressed about dystopias has to do with anything, people who work at FAANGs and that caliber companies are literally some of the most fortunate people on earth. That's why top engineers are way more interested in getting a job there than emigrating to Germany.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#595

Post by pwned1 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

cactus2093 wrote: post #587

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Here's a bit of an implementation detail question I have wondered about unionizing in tech, within software engineering specifically - how would a union work in a field where the lines between managers and employees are so blurred? Most companies have a parallel IC track where the most senior ICs are paid more and are more senior at the company than many managers. And there are tech leads/team leads that have no repo…

That will all be addressed in the take-it-or-leave-it 2,400 page proposed contract.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#596

Post by newacct583 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

> engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better".

That is literally the opposite of what "collective" means. You seem to be trying to argue against unionization by circular logic, by claiming that it doesn't work because market forces do the same thing because unionization isn't necessary.

I mean, it's easy to do that in the case of FAANG employers who already pay very high salaries. But they make outrageous profits too. What's the argument that the already-highly-paid engineers shouldn't get a bigger share?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#597

Post by jskell725 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #455

x87678r wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that doesn't look like any union I've ever seen.

What unions have you seen/participated in? What countries are those located in? Could you imagine a union that does something that is not shared with those unions you've seen? Being unlike other unions doesn't have to bad, could be great thing. Why not improve on top of the idea of unions and try to come up with something even better? Seems like an excellent idea, especially in these times of "disruption" of industri…

You might get a Google indeed; some new vehicle that helps move society forward. But I suspect a very dangerous Theranos; except the union members will be left holdng the mess after it blows up .

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#598

Post by SoSoRoCoCo » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

I'm excited about this, but also dismayed at the huge amount of pushback from the tech community. Exploitation in tech is built into the culture: people worship the guy who never spends time with his family and works 100 hrs per week. Screaming managers are tolerated, even revered. Retaliation is commonplace and keeps people in line, and is justified as "s/he was just lazy" or "not a team player". This needs to end. Unions are a great first step.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#599

Post by datavirtue » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #102

pacificat0r wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So these are really good examples, but I still don't understand what unions can do for 1% of someone's pay. They kind of look like subscription services, or worse places you have to join or else there are unintended consequences from other examples where they mention looking at union membership as an indicator of some experience (so kind of like a tax). The screen actors guild and all the movie-related guilds seem in…

In theory the unions should be a place to organise employees, to help improve working conditions. But I suspect for most people the real benefit will be protection from miscarriages of justice. I've personally seen people put through the wringer by HR teams, and even when the HR team acknowledges they've fucked up, there's no apologies or an attempt to make things right. Unions can provide protection in these case, w…

This is how it works with the nurses unions. My mom got accused by another nurse of intentionally hurting a patient. Without the union she would have been on her own to deal with HR and management who would have just gotten rid of her as a matter of their convenience. Nothing of substance was found out of the investigations. The union worked. It will also protect her against any future political repercussions arising from the accusations and investigation. The police were involved and everything, no way in hell an employee would survive that without union representation.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#600

Post by pwned1 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #451

marcinzm wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me that the organizers are using a union to push their own personal agendas (which they otherwise don't have the power to push) which seems like the perfect way to form a corrupt union that harms workers.

What in the mission statement seems to be "personal agendas" to you? Here they are listed: - All Alphabet workers deserve a voice - Social and economic justice are paramount to achieving just outcomes - Everyone deserves a welcoming environment - All aspects of our work should be transparent - Our decisions are made democratically - We prioritize society and the environment - We stand in solidarity with workers and a…

> Social and economic justice are paramount to achieving just outcomes

Social justice is not justice