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A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#241

Post by dukeyukey »

kepler1 wrote: post #132

Unions are about locking in a minimum standard of work on something that doesn't change, stifling innovation, covering for underperforming colleagues, rewarding people based on how long they've been around, making things cost more than they should be, and worse. Why would I ever want to support such a system, in an industry that has brought innovative technology and material improvement in living standards and knowle…

Unions are just a way to have some kind of collective voice; what the union does and how it achieves it's goals are up to the members. There are many, many models you can follow, from union-shops to more insurance/mutual aid society models.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#242

Post by antisoeu »

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Here in Germany unions (in tech) will for example make sure that older employees can't be fired, so the younger employees will be fired instead. So I don't think you can simply claim they are beneficial for everybody.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#243

Post by visarga »

ATsch wrote: post #134
chasd00 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's ominous, so if you don't tow the union line on the social issue of the day then they can prevent you from being a member which will be required for employment?

Unlike corporations like Google, who would never fire (sorry, "quit voluntarily") someone for criticizing the stance of the company on social issues.

Yeah, they should have taken her punch right to the face with a smile, without flinching, then apologized to her. Instead they said 'yes, right now' when she said 'here are my terms, you got to accept them or I leave'. Who would do that?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#244

Post by prepend »

alextheparrot wrote: post #147
prepend wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leaving changes nothing Leaving improves conditions for the worker and that’s the biggest thing for me, the worker.

The entire post talks about effects on the company. If we’re trying to be unreasonably obtuse, it doesn’t change conditions for a worker either because a person not working is not a worker.

What I meant is that it does change conditions for the worker as they leave for better conditions. I think working in tech, it’s been a luxury to line up a new job and go to that job with zero down time. I’m not suggesting people do brash stuff like walk out without new employment lined up.

This is a huge change, the biggest I think, as I can change all of my conditions by finding a company that gives me what I want.

I think to a lesser extent since I’ve frequently seen that smart people leaving for specific reasons changes company policy.

I was just trying to show a simple contra to parent’s comment saying that leaving changes nothing as that seems simply false to me.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#245

Post by greggman3 »

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Here's a movie about some of the issues with Hollywood unions

https://youtu.be/j5a_00YVVkQ?t=1018

https://youtu.be/j5a_00YVVkQ?t=935

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#246

Post by ekimekim »

piker wrote: post #156

Honest question: are there good examples of unionized companies that continue to innovate post unionization? Unionization seems at the surface like the end stage of disruptor where stakeholders begin jockeying for slices of a pie that now grows linearly.

Remember that correlation does not imply causation - even if it's true that innovative companies tend to not have unions, it might be (for example) because younger, smaller industries tend to be innovating faster and also haven't developed to the point of unionization yet.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#247

Post by wccrawford »

mondoshawan wrote: post #100
ahelwer wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but usually the people who know about the union before it's announced are those who are understood to support the idea & are unlikely to go to management about it :)

This is the first I've ever suggested an opinion on it publicly, and I'm a line engineer, not management. Internally, I don't usually talk about things like this, either.

Right, that's why the GP said that only those who were understood to already support the idea would have been approached about it.

You're an unknown, and they didn't risk telling you and have it leak early.

At least, that's the idea. Who knows how true any of this is yet.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#248

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #191
ahelwer wrote: post #168

On a corp-cultural level it's interesting this is originating at Google, as opposed to say Amazon which is generally considered a more burnout-causing/crushing place to work on the engineering side in some teams. The Google employees I've talked to all seemed remarkably uncynical about their jobs, and still took a certain amount of pride in working at their company. I can contrast this with Amazon, Microsoft, and (to…

Essentially the different is that Google is so incredibly culty that people refuse to leave even when they're grossly mistreated and the company does incredibly unethical things. Everyone in big tech has job mobility, so for someone to care to unionize, they have to not want to leave . So where in other tech companies, unhappy employees leave, at Google they try to "fix" it, which has led to these unionization type e…

> Everyone in big tech has job mobility,

Except for immigrants pending green card/citizenship...

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#249

Post by prepend »

eropple wrote: post #149
prepend wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leaving changes nothing Leaving improves conditions for the worker and that’s the biggest thing for me, the worker.

Not a leading question, I promise: do you believe you don't own your externalities?

I’m not sure what you mean. I’ve worked in management and staff roles and in both there’s tons of externalities that I don’t control, but maybe can influence.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#250

Post by maxehmookau »

ur-whale wrote: post #184
maxehmookau wrote: post #160

Before US-based workers jump on this and start talking about how unions are a bad thing in general, remember to look to Europe. Trade unions are a huge part of the workforce culture here and are mostly a force for good.

>Trade unions are ... a force for good. As witnessed by how much Europe innovates in tech. lol.

I could provide a list of European tech innovations over the last decade, but I sense you're not looking to engage in good faith.
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