A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#451

Post by capableweb » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #258

sz4kerto wrote: post #173

One difficulty I see with the mission statement ( https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statemen... ) is that it is very broad, and contains a lot of progressive values that are likely not as widely shared as the authors might expect. One might or might not agree with these values, but it is going to be significantly harder to start steering the company's product direction and social responsibility effo…

Seems to me that the organizers are using a union to push their own personal agendas (which they otherwise don't have the power to push) which seems like the perfect way to form a corrupt union that harms workers.

What in the mission statement seems to be "personal agendas" to you?

Here they are listed:

- All Alphabet workers deserve a voice

- Social and economic justice are paramount to achieving just outcomes

- Everyone deserves a welcoming environment

- All aspects of our work should be transparent

- Our decisions are made democratically

- We prioritize society and the environment

- We stand in solidarity with workers and advocates everywhere

Full statement: https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statemen...

All in all, seems to be good values to want to have in a workplace, especially such a global and pervasive one as Google. If all of these things were pushed for and implemented in Google, you think that would harm the workers?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#452

Post by SerLava » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

Unions are for every single industry.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#453

Post by theravengod » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

WTH? Most people here don't know recent US history anymore ? Just look at what unions did to the people of Detroit ?

Sure, on paper it seems like a good idea to fight the rich company to give employees a bigger share of the profit, but do remember: it's not the employee that decides how much profit is enough for the company to have. If the investors/CEO/boss doesn't feel the profit is enough, they/he/she can close the company. Unions always will protect the weaker worker (regardless of the domain) and subtract value form the better workers.

If some employees don't like what Google is doing, they can protest (as they did). Also they can leave. Twisting the arm of the boss to give you more, when has that worked in the long run ?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#454

Post by dionidium » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #77

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster. Yeah, a bizarre line of reasoning. Footballers first unionized in 1907 and haven't looked back since. Today, your average footballer (plying their trade in the upper tiers of English football) makes more in a month than most tech engineers make in a year (g…

For what it’s worth, Major League Baseball also has a union and one of its primary effects is to fuck over “new hires” by artificially transferring wages to older players based on seniority-based “service time” provisions.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#455

Post by capableweb » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:25 PM UTC

x87678r wrote: post #206

sz4kerto wrote: post #173

One difficulty I see with the mission statement ( https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statemen... ) is that it is very broad, and contains a lot of progressive values that are likely not as widely shared as the authors might expect. One might or might not agree with these values, but it is going to be significantly harder to start steering the company's product direction and social responsibility effo…

Yeah that doesn't look like any union I've ever seen.

What unions have you seen/participated in? What countries are those located in? Could you imagine a union that does something that is not shared with those unions you've seen?

Being unlike other unions doesn't have to bad, could be great thing. Why not improve on top of the idea of unions and try to come up with something even better? Seems like an excellent idea, especially in these times of "disruption" of industries left and right.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#456

Post by wing-_-nuts » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:25 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #110

avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

>Comparing Germany to USA is pointless, very different government, history, culture, business climate, etc.

Ah there it is. The libertarian's go to when one compares the US to any country with better institutions such as universal healthcare, unions, etc. We couldn't possibly do that here, no, American 'exceptionalism' only goes so far it seems.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#457

Post by whimsicalism » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:25 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #417

jollofricepeas wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. The funny thing about unions is that the HN community believes that every other organization and industry can be disrupted...EXCEPT unions. It’s hilarious. The comments are usually all anecdotal with some story about an uncle or father who was “screwed over” by his union back in the 80s or 90s. We are capable of creating a new type of union and making collective bargaining better than what previous gener…

What can be done and what will be done are two entirely different concepts, though. What makes you confident that this time it will be different or that this union would be immune from the same issues that occur in other unions? If we’ve reached the point where the strongest arguments for unionizing is that maybe this time it will somehow be different than other unions, that’s not encouraging.

> the strongest arguments for unionizing is that maybe this time it will somehow be different than other unions

I think the strongest argument for unionizing is that we know that this time is different from other times - wealth inequality is staggeringly high.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#458

Post by KLexpat » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:26 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #18

mountainb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption that they would have to be hallucinating to be recounting a standard tale of union intimidation is very funny. That's what a union is for: thugging on people. You have to have soft hands to believe anything else.

Isn't that tale the reverse of that - i.e. a tale of intimidating union members? I find it hard to believe stuff like this would fly in a major city of a western country in 21st century, even in the United States. Though I can't honestly discount it completely either...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Trade_Un...

Commissioner Heydon found that corruption was widespread and deep-seated, and recommended a new national regulator with the same powers as the Australian Securities and Investments Commission be established to combat corruption in the trade union movement. The Report highlighted insufficient record keeping (including false invoicing and destruction of documents); "rubber stamp" committees which failed to enforce rules; payment of large sums by employers to unions; and influence peddling by means of the inflation of union membership figures. The Report recommended a toughening of financial disclosure rules, new civil penalties to bind workers and officials on financial disclosure provisions; a new criminal offence.[50] Frank Bongiorno, Professor of History at the Australian National University, has described this report as having "all the impact of last year’s telephone book being dumped in a wheelie-bin.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/mick-gatto-broug...

Mafia boss settles disputes between real estate developers and union boss, no worries mate! "Building industry sources said it appeared the parties had opted to use Mr Gatto to settle their issues rather than involve police."

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#459

Post by whimsicalism » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

bjo590 wrote: post #363

cool_dude85 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you want someone who can tell you what the yet-to-be-negotiated contract with your employer will look like? Maybe you should be looking to join up with the Mage's Guild, I understand that their magic can see the future very clearly.

I don't need to see a negotiated contract. I need to see a list of grievances the union wants to negotiate for. So far everything I have ever wanted but not had from an employer I was able to find by switching employers. What is something concrete that would make my life better that I can only get by joining a union?

Really spitballing, but one that comes to mind is eliminate forced private arbitration? I haven't been able to avoid that one by switching employers.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#460

Post by svieira » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #417

jollofricepeas wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. The funny thing about unions is that the HN community believes that every other organization and industry can be disrupted...EXCEPT unions. It’s hilarious. The comments are usually all anecdotal with some story about an uncle or father who was “screwed over” by his union back in the 80s or 90s. We are capable of creating a new type of union and making collective bargaining better than what previous gener…

What can be done and what will be done are two entirely different concepts, though. What makes you confident that this time it will be different or that this union would be immune from the same issues that occur in other unions? If we’ve reached the point where the strongest arguments for unionizing is that maybe this time it will somehow be different than other unions, that’s not encouraging.

Precisely - I'm not anti-union, but I've seen the worst of unions (where they become boss #2 instead of being the collective voice of the worker). Anyone planning on starting a union should look at cases where unions _failed_ and avoid creating a union structure that resembles the failures.