A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#851

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:46 AM UTC

caeril wrote: post #302

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

[deleted]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#852

Post by listless » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:50 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #370

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

I can only add with my own anecdote. My son dated a girl when they were both 14. This girl had gender dysphoria. She was suffering from a lot of other externalities, but she swore she was a boy. Fast forward 3 years and she is now mature, optimistic, and very much a girl.

Culture seems to be going through a convulsion of sorts and it is taking an enormous toll on our young girls. They do seem to grow out of it, but the phenomenon is real.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#853

Post by justinjlynn » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:52 AM UTC

pseudalopex wrote: post #790

honkdaddy wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ I don't think this study is perfect by any means, especially as the data is coming from parents of said teenage girls, but it's a place to start.

That study might be the most flawed I've ever seen. It relied on parents' perceptions like you said. And the author selected for parents who refused to accept their children coming out as trans. Among other problems.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnc_KvWkiHw&t=3324s

Wow. You're right that's an amazingly badly constructed study. Low-n, indirect-non-patient self-report (parental reporting/perception bias) w/ no cross adjustment or multi-party correction. Biased recruitment practices... hecking YIKES.

Oh, and of course, the methodology was soundly criticised and contextualised in the same journal; imagine that. - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424477/

> The level of evidence produced by the Dr. Littman’s study cannot generate a new diagnostic criterion relative to the time of presentation of the demands of medical and social gender affirmation.

Surprise.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#854

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:53 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #801

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are competing ideologies between the United States and the Rest of the World, essentially culminating in two approaches of diagnosing psychological and psychiatric health concerns. One comes from the American Psychological Association, called the DSM and another comes from the World Health Organization called the ICD. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/10/icd-dsm

This doesn't address the "dysphoria = trans" claim at all. As I wrote in the other comment, one can be uneasy or unhappy with one's body/gender without wanting to switch to "the other" gender. As a mathematician, it seems like people here are claiming {1,2} = R (real numbers) which is just weird, they're sets of different cardinality.

You are arguing semantics. The specific words that the scientific community uses to refer to reality in their models of reality often change.

For example, “discomfort” in gender dysphoria is a scientific term that implies a level of suffering on par with the “discomfort” one would feel immediately after a major surgery, during the recovery phase, except this discomfort is chronic.

Scientifically, people experiencing gender dysphoria are considered to be in a state of chronic suffering for which there is a medical treatment, called gender affirming care.

Not all gender affirming care results in gender reassignment.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#855

Post by slumdev » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:54 AM UTC

pseudalopex wrote: post #785

bradleyjg wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, if any, are the permanent consequences of being on puberty blockers from, say, 13-18? I’d guess they’d be significant but that’s just a guess.

Decreased bone density is a concern. This is monitored. It can be mitigated with supplements and exercise. And it isn't known if it's permanent or only for the duration of treatment as far as I know. AMAB patients have less penile tissue for vaginoplasty. They have other options though. I don't think anyone has studied mature penile size in AMAB patients who decided to go through male puberty. Few do.

So an "AMAB patient" who takes puberty blockers never develops into an adult man and would require surgery to simulate the appearance of being an adult man if he decided he wanted that?

And people insist that these drugs are harmless?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#856

Post by CRConrad » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:55 AM UTC

seany wrote: post #567

mkr-hn wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them" This isn't actually a thing. Certain factions who would prefer trans people cease to exist push this idea that kids are on this hot new meme of getting their bits flipped before reaching the age of consent, but it is simply not a thing. No top surgery, either. It just isn't a thing. It's a wild fantasy. The only thing kids can go on are puberty bl…

This is just false. I personally know people in the states that make it false, and other evidence is very easily accessible.

Which states; or rather, how many? There are fifty of them.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#857

Post by otde » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:57 AM UTC

whoooooo123 wrote: post #743

worik wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there is more heat than light in these debates. The Gender Critical Feminists do make up bogeyman stories about rapists in prisons, trans women disrupting breast feeding groups etcetera. The Trans lobby though has also been guilty of the same sort of thing. E.g. I am no fan of professional sport (I hope this kills it dead) but to claim that trans women have no advantage over natal women is opinion not fa…

> bogeyman stories about rapists in prisons As I said in another comment, this is far from a bogeyman story - there was already a case in the UK of a male-bodied convicted rapist being housed in a woman's prison because "she" decided post-conviction that "she" identified as female. She then went on to sexually assault multiple female inmates. Look up the name Karen White. I put "she" in quotes not because I have a pr…

Here’s what I mean when I asked us to consider perspectives of trans people —- I want you to understand us not just as potential perpetrators of violence here, but also as recipients. Trans women are subject to prison rape at apparently disproportionate levels [1][2] when housed in men’s prisons. Instead of framing this as “is it ethical to move a woman to a women’s prison on the off chance she’s a man gaming the system,” I would consider asking “is it an acceptable tradeoff to keep a woman in men’s prison on the off chance she’s a secret rapist, even if her chances of being raped herself are increased as a result?”

It’s worthwhile to interrogate some of the ways we frame these kinds of discussions, implicitly or otherwise, myself included!

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-ar...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_St...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#858

Post by freemint » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:57 AM UTC

meetups323 wrote: post #570

scubbo wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

The point is clearly that we should discourage folks from undertaking any permanent life alterations while they're still in the "it could be just a phase" stage. To use your analogy, we're dissuading the person from tattooing "I hate broccoli" on them until they've reached age 18 or whatever. Nobody is saying we should deny them their self-image outright.

While wise it ignores the fact that the intervention can save lives which would be ended by 18 years of age.

Would you be for puberty blockers so that puberty can be delayed until 18 and automatic sex transformations be paused until the person can make a decision which way they want to go?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#859

Post by TimTheTinker » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:58 AM UTC

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #770

TimTheTinker wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that people entangle their sense of identity with their opinions. (I think PG had an essay on HN recently that talked about this - he called out religious and political opinions in particular.) So their opinions aren't up for discussion. If you disagree with them, they feel offended and personally attacked.

Interfering with the opinion of another is contrary to the principles of human rights. https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...

Disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't interfering with it.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#860

Post by slg » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 2:00 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #848

NikolaNovak wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to wade into a controversial topic where I'm under-educated and have limited info/opinions; but for what little it is worth to add to anecdata - the current cohort of 12-15 year old girls in my friend/family circle are virtually all in some level of gender dysphoria. Most of their parents are supportive and loving but... panicked, I guess - completely uncertain what to do, how best to help them, and without ro…

I think this raises a few questions. Has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years? Why does this affect as many youths as it does today? No doubt there was unhappiness with one's identity in the past, but I doubt it was at the level it is today. And, in addition, I doubt it's at the same elevated level in all countries. In other words, we can ask 30 or 40 year olds, did you as a kid feel unhappy with your identity…

>In other words, we can ask 30 or 40 year olds, did you feel unhappy with your identity as much as today's youth feel about their identities but couldn't wouldn't express it?

This won't be accurate for a few reasons.

First, there are certainly people in denial about these feelings. A society that is more hostile to trans people will yield a society that has more trans people denying their true identity. That should be obvious. Sometimes that denial is only outward which could result on them lying on a poll. Sometimes that denial will even be to themselves which means they couldn't be truthful on a poll.

If you have spent time around young children you have probably learned that it is difficult to understand a feeling without being able to name that feeling. Similarly it is possible for people to be experiencing gender dysmorphia without realizing that it is specifically gender dysmorphia. I have heard trans people talk about having a general lack of comfort in their body or just the sense that they were somehow wrong that they couldn't explain until they later in life realized they are trans.

Also trans people tragically have a shorter average life span due to increased rates of violence and suicide. Simply measuring the percentage of 40 years isn't going to be comparable to a percentage of 15 year olds because many of those 15 year olds sadly won't live to see 40.