Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#851

Post by almost_usual » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 4:19 AM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #764

tempsy wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This story is insanely misleading though. Everyone here is talking about why the tech elite are leaving due to the quality of life when Keith Rabois specifically has like 3-4 IPOs he was an early investor in going public right now and makes no sense to stay in California in 2021 and pay state capital gains taxes on those sales. Same with Elon Musk and Tesla’s absurd stock price. And probably a lot of other people giv…

I think you’re echoing OP’s point. Some people come to California for opportunity, and when they find enough success, they leave. They’re not CA natives, they’re expats from places with less opportunity and crappier weather. People who want to live in California view the taxes as a cost of enjoying California.

This is literally the history of California and why most people immigrated here in the first place.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#852

Post by carapace » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 4:20 AM UTC

Panini_Jones wrote: post #801

carapace wrote: post #481

San Fransisco isn't part of Silicon Valley. You have to drive for, like, an hour to get to SV from here. SF isn't a nice town. It has nice aspects and places, sure, but it's always been pretty rough here just under the surface. The initial Mission was like a concentration camp for Indians. I just found out that SF State University is built on an Ohlone graveyard. Chinatown was harsh, the population was almost entirel…

> SF isn't a nice town You make this assertion but back it up by remarking on things from the past. The Mission was a bloodbath for Native Americans one or two centuries ago, yes, but how does that support your initial claim that it currently isn't a nice town? Is that supporting claim really affecting the residents of the mission so greatly right now? I think San Francisco is a nice town. I hated it before the pande…

> The Mission ... currently isn't a nice town?

I lived in the Mission District. I can tell you some stories. Gangsters and just crazy shit. It's still pretty wild there despite gentrification.

Sunset used to have something called "Sunset District Incorporated" or something like that. Skinheads basically. Dunno how it is now.

I went to high school in Hunters Point. Doublerock isn't as famous as Compton but it gets respect. East of 3rd street down there is where the enlightened progressives of San Francisco segregate our Black folks.

What I'm saying is we have lots of different sorts of gangs here in SF. You don't get jumped for your Nike's on Muni so much these days, but still.

But that's not all.

Go walk around the Tenderloin for a minute (DO NOT ACTUALLY DO THIS, I am speaking rhetorically. It's physically dangerous. Highest incidence of male-on-male rape in the nation in the Tenderloin.) I lived there briefly and saw some wild things.

I haven't even touched on the folks living in tents and in Golden Gate Park and down by Lake Merced, or the rampant public drug abuse downtown.

> Russian Hill, North Beach/Telegraph Hill, the Marina, Ocean Beach, etc.

Are you trolling? Those are the nice neighborhoods!

Even Detroit has nice neighborhoods.

In contrast I lived in a Canadian city for a little while and I can remember the night I was coming home late and it dawned on me that I was perfectly safe, in a way that I had never felt growing up in San Francisco.

I love this town, but she's a shady lady.

- - - -

And BTW wtf are you doing going for walks and doing "many things" in the middle of a pandemic!? Goddamnit dude.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#853

Post by seattle_spring » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 4:28 AM UTC

greensquirrel wrote: post #779

habosa wrote: post #689

In the last 10-15 years San Francisco gained a ton of residents that didn't want to be there at all. They moved there because the job opportunities in tech were too hard to turn down. I had some friends like this, they just never really liked the city. Now they're all leaving because their job is not making them stay. That's fine and I'm happy they have more choices now. But there's a flip side to that. One of my lea…

> they just never really liked the city. Pretty hard to like a city where a non-trivial portion of the residents are hating on you and blaming you and others like you for many problems of their own doing. I left a year ago and I personally hope both San Francisco and all of California suffers fiscal collapse. The state grossly mistreats it's most productive citizens, when its those very citizens that fund the greates…

Several hundred thousand state taxes in one year? That means you made at least 2.5m. What exactly are you complaining about?

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#854

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 4:32 AM UTC

nus07 wrote: post #582

rpearl wrote: post #555

Nobody really brings up that the bay area is one of few places in the US where you can live without a car. Really, even compared to other "walkable" cities beyond a select few, similarly expensive places. Nobody really brings up that the bay area has better LGBT and other minority protections than anywhere in the US, either. Every time someone mentions cheap midwest cities I have to pull up https://crossingenres.com/…

I agree on almost all of your points with a few caveats. - Cars : The Bay Area is very walkable but that’s mainly SF. The tech burbs of Palo Alto , Menlo Park are not super walkable and you are relying on the BART and other public transport . But Covid has destroyed public transport and cuts in funding threaten them further. LGBT : This is not really the 80s and 90s . Most big cities from DC, Atlanta, Austin ,Chicago…

[deleted]

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#855

Post by solidsnack9000 » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 4:34 AM UTC

tempsy wrote: post #727

habosa wrote: post #689

In the last 10-15 years San Francisco gained a ton of residents that didn't want to be there at all. They moved there because the job opportunities in tech were too hard to turn down. I had some friends like this, they just never really liked the city. Now they're all leaving because their job is not making them stay. That's fine and I'm happy they have more choices now. But there's a flip side to that. One of my lea…

This story is insanely misleading though. Everyone here is talking about why the tech elite are leaving due to the quality of life when Keith Rabois specifically has like 3-4 IPOs he was an early investor in going public right now and makes no sense to stay in California in 2021 and pay state capital gains taxes on those sales. Same with Elon Musk and Tesla’s absurd stock price. And probably a lot of other people giv…

California actually has fairly carefully considered taxation of equity compensation. It might be that the structure Rabois has put together allows him to avoid taxes on equity after he moves; but most people who are leaving will still have to pay those taxes when they finally sell.

Regarding their actions being a symbolic betrayal of the Bay Area, I suspect most of them feel betrayed. High income tax in California doesn't reflect high provision of services. It's due in part to poor cost control and in part to poor property tax policy, such that California's income tax is a de facto transfer of wealth from working people and capital investors to property owners. These investors, companies and workers have paid a tremendous amount in taxes, and have been repaid with ever greater taxation, ever decreasing access to the property they are helping to subsidize, poor services, and even disrespect.

There's no reason to assume that every tax, fee or levy that the government issues is justified. The authors refer to Twitter and other companies as being "...let...off the hook..." for a tax but fail to mention that this was San Francisco's effort to impose its own payroll tax!

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#856

Post by ijidak » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 4:36 AM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #53

ijidak wrote: post #4

There is a supremacy, but the idea that it is threatened is hyperbolic, designed to get readers. This is a small shift in the grand scheme. It might help create new centers. But the gravity is going to be around the universities and infrastructure that is unique to the area. Shifts like that rarely happen overnight. Especially not because of something as temporary as a pandemic.

The university situation is not particularly unique in SV. What other infrastructure do you mean?

Venture capital, finance, concentration of mentors, proximity to Asia, liberal culture and massive population of California.

Infrastructure might be the wrong word.

I was mainly thinking of soft factors that take time to grow following the exodus. As well as geography and demographics.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#857

Post by tempsy » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 4:46 AM UTC

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #855

tempsy wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This story is insanely misleading though. Everyone here is talking about why the tech elite are leaving due to the quality of life when Keith Rabois specifically has like 3-4 IPOs he was an early investor in going public right now and makes no sense to stay in California in 2021 and pay state capital gains taxes on those sales. Same with Elon Musk and Tesla’s absurd stock price. And probably a lot of other people giv…

California actually has fairly carefully considered taxation of equity compensation. It might be that the structure Rabois has put together allows him to avoid taxes on equity after he moves; but most people who are leaving will still have to pay those taxes when they finally sell. Regarding their actions being a symbolic betrayal of the Bay Area, I suspect most of them feel betrayed. High income tax in California do…

Different situations. If you’re a VC you’re simply buying preferred shares. Shouldn’t be owing anything until you sell. And if your residence for that tax year is somewhere else I don’t know of any reason why California could claim capital gains tax simply because you invested in a pre-IPO company and selling post IPO.

The reason some people are surprised by tax bills when they move is because they vested their shares or options while in California as part of their compensation and then later moved. Logically it makes sense in that situation to owe state taxes on income that you earn in the state you earned it.

When you later sell you shouldn’t owe taxes in California if you’re out of state for that tax year.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#858

Post by tptacek » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 4:59 AM UTC

tekknik wrote: post #768

mturmon wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're myopically focused on a certain reading, so as mentioned, won't engage further.

Really? To me it reads that way about you. To put the point more simply, the left and socially liberal seem rather illogical these days. To me it seems like you’ve been proven wrong and are not willing to accept it.

How do you go from one obstinate commenter chanting "I'm not owned" to the whole left?

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#859

Post by yanderekko » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:04 AM UTC

borepop wrote: post #838

greensquirrel wrote: post #779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they just never really liked the city. Pretty hard to like a city where a non-trivial portion of the residents are hating on you and blaming you and others like you for many problems of their own doing. I left a year ago and I personally hope both San Francisco and all of California suffers fiscal collapse. The state grossly mistreats it's most productive citizens, when its those very citizens that fund the greates…

>You'd be bitter too if you paid several hundred thousand in state taxes in 2019 If I ever pay several hundred thousand dollars in state tax in a single year I will be a millionaire many times over, with far more money than I will ever need, and will be grateful for my remarkably good fortune.

You’ll be simultaneously grateful and also resentful towards the squandering of resources that you could direct towards better ends.

Re: Tech elites leaving San Francisco threaten Silicon Valley's supremacy

#860

Post by chii » Tue, Dec 08, 2020, 5:09 AM UTC

stainforth wrote: post #845

chii wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often hear arguments about capital gains taxes being an unfair advantage, and that it should be taxed the same as income. But often these arguments don't present a full picture - because it only discusses the end result of the dollar received and compare the tax rates. What about the risk? A job-income is 100% guaranteed to be received if one worked. Even if the business paying the said wage doesn't make a profit,…

The person with a job and the person "risking" their billions in capital are not comparable.

from a financial perspective, the job comes with zero (or near zero) monetary risk.

The person risking "billions" in capital is taking "billions" in monetary risk (the weighting depending on what the investment is - bonds are less risky than shares, for example).