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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#831

Post by oceliker »

rkangel wrote: post #530
jjoonathan wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows patch auto-revert-settings is cancer. It breaks my bluetooth every time and my setup is very typical so it probably does it to millions of others. Details: Bluetooth headphones with microphones actually show up as 3 sound devices, one high quality output device and a pair of low quality input and output devices. Whenever a microphone is requested, the low quality pair is selected. Output quality goes to shit…

> Since many apps request microphone access for non-obvious reasons Interesting. I have what appears to be exactly the same bluetooth headset setup (Bose QuietComfort 35s), and use it all day every day while at work. I have the slightly annoying thing that if I'm in a video conference all normal audio isn't heard (unless I switch the default audio output), but I only get that when actively in a VC. I have never had '…

There’s a specific setting, enabled by default, that removes or reduces other noise whenever Windows detects “communications activity”: https://appuals.com/stop-skype-lowering-volume-sounds/

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#832

Post by potato24 »

I could use Wayland and deal with all the issues it has with hacky ways. Or, I could not use Wayland and continue working with things like team viewer and do my recordings and presentations with actually useful programs and industry standards.

Just because something is a 'niche' use case doesn't mean its not important. Yes the average programmer is just fine under Wayland. Every other niche case Linux has been working to accommodate all these years isn't because, even if slight, Wayland causes issues.

I am also even less inclined to use it again after these comments.

Don't compare your detractors to anti-vaxxers!

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#833

Post by michaelmrose »

pmlnr wrote: post #199
patrickaljord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. Most of them are too frequent, automatic, plus they are not actual improvements.

As an aside if you use gmail have you checked out the old basic html view recently?

https://support.google.com/mail/answer/15049?hl=en

Old gmail is faster and normal things like opening a link in a new tab actually works like any other page and its actually a lot easier to read because of it.

In the new interface you are only given a fraction of the horizontal space for the actual mail, and I actually have to scroll sideways to see the pop out in new window control which for aesthetic reasons is only a graphic with no text label except on mouse over. Popping it out gives you a window that you may or may not need to resize or move for optimal reading and as far as I can see there is no way to just read the mail in a new tab in the same window at all which breaks most people's methodology for managing multiple tabs.

It's not merely bad its actively hostile.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#834

Post by avh02 »

kaba0 wrote: post #695
Miraste wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, trying to work with a company as intractable and anti-OSS as Nvidia must be incredibly frustrating and I sympathize. Nouveau is too slow and broken to be usable, and that's also NV's fault. On the other, I'm never going to choose Wayland over Nvidia (i.e. throw out all my GPUs and buy slower ones), and it obviously can't be a default in any major distros while this is still the case. So long as it's…

Yet again, wayland is the protocol. Wlroots based wayland compositors doesn’t support the nvidia created API, but gnome and as far as I know plasma on wayland both do so. So your statement is simply false that wayland can’t run on nvidia (proprietary. The open source version works everywhere).

> Yet again, wayland is the protocol.

if people on HN don't know or care on something like this (I didn't, and I don't), then good luck telling less HN-y people about wayland being the protocol and not the implementation.

I'm annoyed at myself for this very comment, but somehow, somebody (many people), somewhere messed up the messaging around these things.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#835

Post by michaelmrose »

rbanffy wrote: post #388
thatguy0900 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really true? I can get into basically any car and understand everything immediately because they are all mostly the same. If Linux could software update the insides of a Linux car it would be unrecognizable every year.

You can probably walk up to a Gnome, KDE, Windows, Mac or Chrome computer and use it after a couple seconds. I don't fully understand all the configuration options my car has - I set it to "comfort" and that's it and yet I can drive it. I don't think I can tell you immediately whether my laptop is running under Wayland or X (I only can because Wayland and FontForge haven't been talking for some time). Does it annoy m…

You can. I can. With a small adjustment period where the hotkeys or actions you expect to work don't and minimal annoyance and you make small adjustments to do the same task.

This is not how average people are AT ALL. Let someone use one of the above and give them something new and watch them be frustrated for at least the first entire day of usage with continuing friction happening for the next week-month every time they find a new task that they don't do that frequently but thought they knew how to do.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#836

Post by michaelmrose »

lewispollard wrote: post #151
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…

Imagine if you asked what makes Steven Spielberg dictatorial power over all our screens! Not even paying him money gives you a veto on his casting choices. What you are experiencing is the expectation of continuing to receive a benefit, useful software, interpreting no longer receiving the same quality software as a loss, and intuiting that you have a rights to avoid that loss. You don't because the benefit was unearned in the first place.

This doesn't mean you don't have a right to discuss or critique and discuss and if appropriately fork or write you own.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#837

Post by [deleted] »

cturner wrote: post #276
cat199 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my admittedly somewhat distanced opinion, Wayland's biggest mistakes were not launching with a coherent strategy for replicating functionality like screen sharing, screenshots, and to a lesser extent remote desktop/applications. They just punted and said "that's a compositor problem!" as though that was supposed to make it ok. People have thus harbored some inherent resentment ever since. agree 1000% - really do…

Remote windowing is a legacy of the era when universities ran dozens of dumb terminals from a server. It would be bizarre to pursue that in an era of hardware-accelerated graphics. If the Wayland design was weighed down by such things, it could never hope to be progress.

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#838

Post by rbanffy »

bjourne wrote: post #624
R0b0t1 wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because then you end up with something like X11, which we already have. The codebase could be re-engineered, sure, but a lot of people championing Wayland tend to see this duplication of effort as good for some reason, and at least last I engaged with them did not like the idea of a "new X11." Personally I think something like that is an inevitability.

> Because then you end up with something like X11, which we already have. X11 is a protocol. What you mean is that we end up with something like Xorg, an implementation of X11. Which is still incorrect because a major design goal of Wayland is to move as much logic as possible from the server to the client.

> a major design goal of Wayland is to move as much logic as possible from the server to the client.

I wonder how long it'll take to have a Wayland server running on the AT&T Blit...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#839

Post by michaelmrose »

cycloptic wrote: post #559
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah seriously. The Gnome project is go-to example of non-ad-driven user-hostile FOSS software development.

I have no idea why it has become so common on here to dog on GNOME for being "user-hostile" because they targeted a different kind of user than the average HN engineer/startup person. You can use one of the "GNOME 2 revival" type desktop environments if that's your fancy.

They produce bad software with a bad interface based on a bad theory of how people use things and when people critique their bad software they give bad reasons, argued badly, with a bad attitude and in bad faith to boot.

It truly needs its own fractal of bad design essay save it would have to a farce in 7 parts.

To say that they targeted a different kind of user is insufficiently descriptive. 3.0 was the beginning of ticking off the users they actually had in order to target users they wish they could get with a total package that such users could never encounter in a million years because joe average wasn't installing Linux in 2011 regardless of how simple you made the interface.

9 years later the Linux user base is virtually unchanged and gnome 3 is no longer horrifying as 9 years of labor have rendered it modestly acceptable after the worst ideas were put off or mitigated.

If you spent 300k building a hovel where the roof fell in quarterly and you after much consternation and a decade of work figured out how to keep the roof mostly in place most of the time I would pretty much expect such a project to be the go to horror story among home builders in the neighborhood.

This isn't meanness its just honesty.

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