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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#831

Post by pteredactyl »

richardw wrote: post #801
dba7dba wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internet was a creation of DARPA. And that D stands for Defense. I believe the silicon research/production that started Silicon Valley was for military needs. Military paid for it. First Computer of US and Britain? It was funded and created during war for military purposes. And what about China and Russia? Will THEY stop AI research just because Google employees demand it?

Neither Ford nor the Right Brothers were military. Xerox PARC wasn't. Tesla isn't. Innovation doesn't need defense support, innovation will come anyway. We just choose to allocate much of our resources to the military so that's where it gets spent. Later we can claim it as a win for defense. A happy surprise benefit of trying to kill each other. All you need is people, time and money. Profit. Many years ago I choose…

To your knowledge.

Yes, you need time money and profit. Agreed. But if those things go against the military's goals, or you're unable to convince them otherwise, you're in trouble. At a certain scale you need to have the nod of those in power. It's a fact of reality on this earth. I'm not saying it's good or bad.

And I don't know how millions being lifted out of poverty, 10000 miles of high-speed rail in ten years, and so on, in China is necessarily oppressive. Or how the sheer virtue of someone being Iranian makes the project bad. I'm getting a lot of black and white vibes.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#832

Post by MikkoFinell »

Gatsky wrote: post #825
MikkoFinell wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is currently the least dangerous it's ever been in history, and all data and all trends point that it will be even less dangerous in the future. Sorry but you're simply wrong.

The problem with this argument is that Pinker could have written the same book in 1930.

Thats wrong, which you'd know if you actually read it.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#833

Post by jstanley »

airstrike wrote: post #239
smokeyj wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you don't help make drones more accurate, you're the reason for collateralized murder". Or, you could like, just stop droning innocent people to death. Not saying we all have to agree, but just that factually speaking - it's within the realm of possibilities. And for that reason it's a false dichotomy.

You’re saying that as if droning was specifically meant to target innocent people, when that’s exactly what they’re trying to avoid.

But how many of the "non-innocent" people who have been killed in drone strikes had actually been found guilty in a fair trial?

And of those who had been, how many were sentenced to death?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#834

Post by hodgesrm »

grellas wrote: post #533

Where does one draw a line these days among the personal, the moral, the legal, and the political? The military application in question is legal and is approved by a duly elected government that supports it politically. In earlier days, employees generally would see this as just doing their jobs in developing technology that their employers wanted developed and would not concern themselves about ultimate uses and app…

> The military application in question is legal and is approved by a duly elected government that supports it politically. In earlier days, employees generally would see this as just doing their jobs in developing technology that their employers wanted developed and would not concern themselves about ultimate uses and applications. In other words, doing your job is personal and, as long as you do it honestly and work hard, you should not be faulted for doing it as requested by your employer.

This is basically the "just following orders" defense. Your argument rationalizes doing nothing.

As a moral person I think you basically have two choices: either don't work on things you think can be used for evil or if you do work on those things step up and make sure they are used responsibly.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#835

Post by pteredactyl »

treebeard901 wrote: post #71
danesparza wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My memory isn't short. You made a point of talking about cryptography. The US government also classified crypto as munitions in order to control its usage and export: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_th... This had very negative effects on cryptography in general (see the FREAK exploit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FREAK ) Also, why wouldn't this be employed to better monitor Stingray ( http…

The classification of cryptography as munitions was an interesting choice. The first amendment may protect domestic encryption capabilities as stated by the wikipedia article. From a legal standpoint, does encryption being classified as munitions also put it into second amendment territory? As information becomes weaponized, it's an interesting thought. The first amendment is arguably more vulnerable these days, so I…

Novel thought. I could definitely see an argument for it falling under 2A.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#836

Post by Gatsky »

MikkoFinell wrote: post #832
Gatsky wrote: post #825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this argument is that Pinker could have written the same book in 1930.

Thats wrong, which you'd know if you actually read it.

I have to disagree with you, all his arguments held back then, there was just less data. He also concedes that the statistical modeling relies on violence afflicting a proportion of the population, rather than absolute numbers - all well and good but an important distinction. Also your point is entirely fallacious anyway in the context of this thread. His book highlights a trend which cannot be disentangled from the historical context which gave rise to it.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#837

Post by calcifer »

hota_mazi wrote: post #565
calcifer wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the " I have to do evil things because if I didn't, someone else would " argument... Just think about what you wrote: "our enemies". Why do you (whichever country you are from) have enemies in the first place? What did your country do to make others hate it? A lot of people seem to focus on how to defend against "those who hate us" without spending a passing thought on the why of it. Solving "why" also solves…

> What did your country do to make others hate it? You have a very simplistic view of geopolitics. What did Poland do to Germany in 1939 to make Germany hate it? What did the Jews do to the Nazis to make them hate them so much? Wars get started for all kinds of reasons, some predictable, others not. It's a simple matter of survival to equip yourself as best you can to defend yourself.

> It's a simple matter of survival to equip yourself as best you can to defend yourself.

And when was the last time the US actually defended its own territory instead of invading somone elses?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#838

Post by StanislavPetrov »

pteredactyl wrote: post #824
StanislavPetrov wrote: post #789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, you just aren't informed on the matter. Not only does the military, CIA and other agencies pour billions in R&D development to SV, the CIA has run a hedge fund for almost 20 years that has significant ownership in hundreds of SV companies. Here is a list of 219 tech companies owned in whole or part by the CIA hedge fund (just the ones they let us know about): https://www.iqt.org/portfolio/ Here is their logo,…

Agreed. Thanks for sharing links. There's also an assumption that military necessarily equals evil. Do you think everyone who works for the NSA is out to curb our civil rights? It's not possible. And in fact, it's what a lot of people who work for the government or military believe in protecting.

There's a debate to be had over the "good" or "evil" that results in government/intelligence/military involvement in tech companies. In order to have a reasoned debate, people have to be aware of the facts. As evidenced in this thread (and elsewhere), many people are unaware of just how entwined our sprawling government and tax-payer funded quasi-government agencies are with "private" tech companies and others in SV.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#839

Post by dang »

HipHopHacker wrote: post #735

As the Google/Youtube/Alphabet crew make plans to become murderers, in their catered, air conditioned offices, to the endless justifications in this thread, I have a big smile on my face as I think of the woman who went in yesterday and shot at these murdering scum. Google/Youtube/Alphabet workers are about to become murderers, and they just got some big blowback yesterday, paying them back in their own coin. Thinkin…

We've banned this account.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#840

Post by exelius »

microcolonel wrote: post #754
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US. Are you sure it's a good idea to become less influential on the world stage?

> The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US. I think people often have that twisted. A lot of the U.S.'s expansion is cultural, not military. That is to say: people liked what they were doing, and became a fan. Think: music, movies, and to some extent, literature, and now you might add software and consumer electronics to that list. And even when looking at Rome, can you imagine how much h…

I think you actually have the relationships reversed. Military power paves the way for projecting culture, not the other way around.

Realpolitik is meaningful; and everyone on the left seems to have forgotten about it (I say this as an unabashed progressive liberal).

The US’ prime advantage in the 20th century was the fact that basically the rest of the industrialized world was completely destroyed twice — and then they paid the United States to help them rebuild. It wasn’t until the 70s that the US’ reliance on oil became heavy enough to exploit strategically, but by then we had built an entire post-industrial economy a decade ahead of Europe and two decades ahead of the rest of the world. We helped Japan do the same because they were basically a puppet state and gave us a foothold in Asia to serve as a buffer with Russia.

Does that sound like cultural expansion driving the military, or the military goals driving the cultural expansion?

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