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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#731

Post by betolink »

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper:

"I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save tens of thousands of lives. Another man helped kill millions."

"Now, I don't know what any of you are going to end up doing in your lives," Dr. Kearns says, "but I can guarantee you that there will come a day when you have a decision to make. And it won't be as easy as deciding between a heart valve and a gas chamber."

To me this is incredibly valid for Silicon Valley engineers these days.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#732

Post by paulddraper »

Clubber wrote: post #390
paulddraper wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first thought, it seems 100% absurd that an ad-hoc underpowered group of people with small arms counts for anything in the modern age. But history shows otherwise: Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq. Empirically, every totalitarian state bans citizen firearms (Nazi Germany, USSR, Cuba, N. Korea). For "good" reason. While of course different, crypto has many of the same pros and cons as firearms, and it should be supported…

Don't forget the Revolutionary war, when we were the Guerrilla force.

That's the classic example, though folks will often argue it doesn't apply because there were only muskets and cannon, not machine guns (though that's technically not true).

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#733

Post by olleromam91 »

1ec32c71876c47 wrote: post #98

If you're an engineer working for Google, I think you can most likely afford to be an idealist, and in my opinion that's a much better option than just blindly following orders. Don't most of us want less war? Does it really drive you to enhance the capabilities of those committing acts of violence? How does one start to believe that by supporting the military you are somehow working towards a better world? If you're…

I think the problem can stem from the urge for everyone to try and find the exact same ideal world. It's so obviously clear that this is impossible, and so obvious that there is no civil way for anyone to enforce an ideology across a massive population. IMO, the best hope is for each man to pursue their ideal world for themselves. What else can we really control?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#734

Post by abalone »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #712
ajross wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SV as a whole is substantially a creation of military spending. That's true, but not really in the general way you argue. Military spending on bay area R&D has been more or less insignificant for the entirety of the internet era. It exists, sure, but it's not driving meaningful revenue for any of the big players. Silicon Valley since the mid 90's has been a consumer thing only. And even in the genesis of the valley…

> Military spending on bay area R&D has been more or less insignificant for the entirety of the internet era. This is ridiculously false. SV receives billions of dollars from the Pentagon, the CIA, and a variety of other government agencies annually. Here is just one example: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-09/peter-thi...

And that's just direct grants. The bigger role is, DARPA nurtures core tech in its earliest stages when commercial viability is still a decade or more off. The "big players in SV" are picking the fruit and bringing it to market, often for nominal technology transfer fees if any. It's like passing the baton from taxpayers to VCs -- but guess who keeps most of the profit.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#735

Post by HipHopHacker »

As the Google/Youtube/Alphabet crew make plans to become murderers, in their catered, air conditioned offices, to the endless justifications in this thread, I have a big smile on my face as I think of the woman who went in yesterday and shot at these murdering scum. Google/Youtube/Alphabet workers are about to become murderers, and they just got some big blowback yesterday, paying them back in their own coin. Thinking of it puts a big smile on my face. Especially reading all the justifications here for the need to work towards militancy.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#736

Post by hyperdunc »

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

Whether military AI endsup being closer to a heart valve or a gas chamber, it's going to be built first by some nation.

But there is space for ethical contemplation during an arms race.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#737

Post by geodel »

monfrere wrote: post #719
geodel wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from one of the country you listed above and it seems perfectly fine to me that Google comply with existing laws of respective countries even if they are in contradiction to US laws.

FWIW, I am American, and I would absolutely object if Google were building weapons for the Chinese military. I would stop using Microsoft products if it turned out they supplied weapons for the Russian takeover of Crimea. I would delete my Twitter account if they were found to be building special-purpose propaganda tools to aid Turkey's Erdogan. Etc. Complying with laws in another country is one thing. Working with a…

I am more conflicted about at least one person I knew committed suicide because IT automation provided by Google eliminated his job. Or in general IT/industrial automation wreaking havoc on my highly populated but poor nation. Now is it just the price of progress as people here would say or should Google employees be held morally responsible for causing destruction of livelihood for many a people.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#738

Post by [deleted] »

HipHopHacker wrote: post #735

As the Google/Youtube/Alphabet crew make plans to become murderers, in their catered, air conditioned offices, to the endless justifications in this thread, I have a big smile on my face as I think of the woman who went in yesterday and shot at these murdering scum. Google/Youtube/Alphabet workers are about to become murderers, and they just got some big blowback yesterday, paying them back in their own coin. Thinkin…

[deleted]

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#739

Post by sumedh »

HipHopHacker wrote: post #735

As the Google/Youtube/Alphabet crew make plans to become murderers, in their catered, air conditioned offices, to the endless justifications in this thread, I have a big smile on my face as I think of the woman who went in yesterday and shot at these murdering scum. Google/Youtube/Alphabet workers are about to become murderers, and they just got some big blowback yesterday, paying them back in their own coin. Thinkin…

> Especially reading all the justifications here for the need to work towards militancy.

The internet was started because of military project. If you really care about this issue you should not be using the internet.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#740

Post by jjoonathan »

bigjimslade wrote: post #725
abalone wrote: post #195

I completely support the employees but it is criminal that this NYT article does not mention the extensive roots of Silicon Valley in Pentagon funding. SV as a whole is substantially a creation of military spending. Just recently in the AI space: - Siri was spun out of a Pentagon project -- look up SRI International and CALO. Its purpose: a "soldier’s servant".[1] - Autonomous driving is a direct evolution of Pentago…

While you are certainly correct that the military has provided the genesis of various valuable technologies, it doesn't have to continue to be that way. We could choose to expend our limited resources on more meaningful, and socially responsible, outlets. This move by Google employees is to me a welcome tug against the hopelessly chaotic military machine, and a push back against continued military involvement in SV a…

I'd give such a political movement a 75% chance of being able to disrupt research funding from DARPA and a 5% chance of being able to replace it.
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