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The United States withdraws from UNESCO

state.gov

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Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#821

Post by tguvot »

skybrian wrote: post #817
landl0rd wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It's not that many people and they still get into a ton of trouble. That seems like an excellent reason to either not accept them, or to enforce that they need to be dispersed widely enough to prevent forming a community and conducting violence in its name until they're back in palestine. Like we can even blame the way things are on the israelis, or at least majorly on them, but that doesn't change the calcu…

Have any European countries volunteered to take more refugees from Gaza? (I wouldn't expect such a thing from the Trump administration.)

european countries run as fast as possible to acknowledge new syrian government in order to declare that syria is safe/stable so all syrian refugees will leave

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#822

Post by aprilthird2021 »

Atreiden wrote: post #213
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #94

> UNESCO’s decision to admit the “State of Palestine” as a Member State is highly problematic, contrary to U.S. policy, and contributed to the proliferation of anti-Israel rhetoric within the organization. I asked this when the administration decided to attack funding for research at Harvard University over wild claims, and I ask again, why are we willing to shoot ourselves in the knees for Israel?

Because Israel is both a critical component of our global surveillance and information warfare programs, and a convenient shield against criticism and investigation.

How is it a critical component of our global surveillance and info warfare? If anything they steal so much from us and give very little in return. They have sold our military secrets to China, stolen nuclear material and secrets from us, and hacked American journalists and citizens and American big tech companies. I don't even think China has done that much damage to us

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#823

Post by dlubarov »

throw310822 wrote: post #596
dlubarov wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems a bit besides the point; I think the point stands that if Israel always wanted Gaza, its unilateral withdraw wouldn't have made sense.

No, I think you should reflect a bit more. If they have to sacrifice a few settlements in Gaza today to be able to create 30 times more in the West Bank tomorrow, it makes perfect sense. And, it doesn't mean at all giving up Gaza for good: in fact, soon after that, they closed Gaza under a total siege that lasted 20 years, until they found a good excuse to retake that one too. In chess you sacrifice pieces. Only a re…

Israel’s disengagement plan was a huge topic of internal debate before being approved by the Knesset. Arguments for it were about demographics and security. I don’t recall any proponents of the plan saying that it was a temporary measure (though some argued Israel could easily regain control if required, as a backup), so that seems like a farfetched explanation.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#824

Post by aprilthird2021 »

azinman2 wrote: post #264
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #94

> UNESCO’s decision to admit the “State of Palestine” as a Member State is highly problematic, contrary to U.S. policy, and contributed to the proliferation of anti-Israel rhetoric within the organization. I asked this when the administration decided to attack funding for research at Harvard University over wild claims, and I ask again, why are we willing to shoot ourselves in the knees for Israel?

Because it’s not actually about Israel.

So we want to shoot ourselves in the knees, for fun? It's clearly about Israel, otherwise we wouldn't be giving a country billions that we can't trust with our military secrets (because they sell them to our adversaries), that has a track record of killing American citizens and never prosecuting anyone responsible, and who constantly defies us despite relying on us to even exist

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#825

Post by JumpCrisscross »

tavavex wrote: post #802
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> melodramatic, overdone theatrics that the US doesn't seem to do to anyone else Iran and North Korea. China with Taiwan. This is deeply precedented geopolitical drama. > It ends up coming off as the US bowing on their knees to relatively minor nations If Israel and Palestine are your issue, of course. (Everything will tend to be. This is just how pet causes and the availability heuristic work.) If not, it doesn’t.

Sorry, I don't think I articulated the main point of what makes the 'theatrics' seem like such to me. It's not just about putting things about international relations into law - most countries do that in regards to war, economics, immigration, etc. It's that this whole 'punishment' is contingent on something so seemingly minor as UN membership (a.k.a. state recognition?). People hate Iran and North Korea, but I don't…

> that this whole 'punishment' is contingent on something so seemingly minor as UN membership (a.k.a. state recognition?)

If the battle lines are on recognition, that's where the fight will be. Once a country is broadly recognised, it's a moot point. (We don't recognise the governments in Tehran, Havana and Caracas, for example.)

> People hate Iran and North Korea, but I don't think many are arguing for them to be expelled from the UN outright

The best analogy is Beijing vis-à-vis Taiwan. Not only does Beijing not recognise Taipei, it also punishes countries and multi-lateral organisations who do.

In this was recognition is analogised to secondary sanctions, and it's something that's been done since the dawn of civilisation.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#826

Post by BigJ1211 »

sys32768 wrote: post #678

According to the UN, genocide: >...means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.... Besides Iceland, all UN member nations have a history of land acquisition through force, colonization, or dispossession. By their own definition, they're all guilty of genocide "in part" at some point in their histories, with several in the last…

Ethnic cleansing isn't genocide and vise-versa. Genocide is very specifically about murdering a group of individuals for their shared characteristic, not displacing them.

In this case, the Palestinians and other groups want to genocide the Jews. The Jews seem to mostly (or smaller groups within Israel at least) want to ethnically cleanse the non-Jewish Palestinians from modern day Israel.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#827

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lbrito wrote: post #764
landl0rd wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm why do many countries not want to accept Palestinians? - Supported Saddam in Kuwait - Supported Saddam in Iraq - Massacred Christians in Lebanon - Tried to overthrow Jordan - Caused chaos in Syria - Destabilized Libya - Aligned with iranian axis despite gulf states (eg Saudi) hosting at that time - Complained about Egypt-Israel peace despite the former being the only country to send men to die for them - Sent jih…

Look at the demographics of Palestine. They are very young. Most of them weren't even born when most of those supposed things supposedly happened. Are you implying that parent's sins transfer to their children?

> Are you implying that parent's sins transfer to their children?

OP isn't making a moral argument. They're making a practical one. It's practical for a potential host to be wary about accepting refugees given the positions of their predecessors. Particularly when the current popuations are engaged in decades (centuries?) old disputes based on ancestral rights.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#828

Post by [deleted] »

eapressoandcats wrote: post #464
techright75 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Israel doesn’t have a plan to clean up the mess. What is the end goal here? Seriously. They’ve invaded and now what? Options are: 1. Regime change, which I have seen no effort to attempt to effectuate 2. Withdrawal, which seems unlikely at this point. 3. Permanent occupation, which seems like the default. It may end up falling short of full genocide but it’s definitely violently upheld apartheid at a minimum. If the…

[deleted]

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#829

Post by Loughla »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #217
Loughla wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's different perspectives, I've come to learn. The people I know who support this regime do so because they feel completely left out (they're low income so I'm not sure that applies to software developers). When there's nothing for you why wouldn't you want to just burn it all down? Then you can build a more "fair" system. Please note that I do not agree with literally anything current admin does, this is just the…

Left out by what? Left out by whom? Are these people actually satisfied that what the administration is doing will improve their lives, or did the administration just tap into their anger and prejudice for votes? You'll have to forgive me for being suspicious, but I hear these arguments, too, and the people I see who feel "left out" are largely left out because they hold fringe beliefs or because they are told they a…

Left out by society in general, and the modern world specifically.

Rural Middle- to low-income folks are who I interact with mostly.

No fringe beliefs, just the unfortunate circumstance of being born in places that peaked 60 years ago, but with family roots deep enough to keep them planted. Not who I would call influential. Mostly just working class Joe's trying to make it and struggling, even though their parents were FAR more successful with FAR less education, training, and pressure.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#830

Post by Workaccount2 »

DSingularity wrote: post #805
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if Hamas surrendered tomorrow, the death would stop Have we seen an end to the violence in the West Bank area of Palestine?

No we haven’t. But he won’t admit that. He wants nothing other than the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Don’t you worry — once that is achieved they will ethnically cleanse West Bank.

They can take the west bank too if they want.

Again, Palestine has no cards left. They are powerless and have no friends with power. They completely failed at diplomacy over the last 50 years and completely failed at building an economy (other than weapons manufacturing).

They lost and lost badly. They can go regroup somewhere else and try to capture the land again in the future. But for now they should stop using their civilians as fodder to childishly delay the inevitable.

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