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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#821

Post by CapitalistCartr »

FearlessNebula wrote: post #590
Diederich wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you're not kidding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer,_Alabama#Economy "Crime increased following the rise in unemployment and social disruption from the decline of manufacturing industries in the area. As of 2019 Bessemer ranks first in terms of violent crimes for US cities with 25,000 or more people." Population has fallen from its peak in 1970 of 33k to 26k today. Thanks for the reference. EDIT: Also hom…

I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?

No income > can't pay bills or buy necessities > desperation > mild panic & muddied thinking while looking for any way to make money > overrides the inner restraint against crime.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#822

Post by Nimitz14 »

duckfang wrote: post #254
parliament32 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, it came from working for a massive union (government, not US) for many years. The downsides are real: hard to fire bad performers, your merits don't matter at all (the guy doing the bare minimum job description gets the same raises as you), wayyy too much focus on seniority (for promotions, vacation selection, etc), and overall just too many rules (for example, "unlimited vacation" works great with my cur…

> hard to fire bad performers In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure. It's also the common canard to use from the managerial class to get rid of someone they don't like. > your merits don't matter at all They don't either in the non-union corporate world either. They pay as little as they can get away with. They'll assign as much work as you can possibly do, and then pil…

> In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure.

Then either you and all your coworkers so far have been amazing, or you're the bad one. Either way consider yourself lucky!

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#823

Post by 11thEarlOfMar »

smiley1437 wrote: post #781
wutbrodo wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. Because they're not, the idea that they are is paternalistic bullshit from the kind of people who get their news from John Oliver. Debt can be dangerous, and payday loans are commensurately more so due to their high rates. But debt is a _tool_, and just like middle- and upper-income folks can use…

I'm sorry but in Ontario, prior to January 1, 2017, the charge was $21 per $100 advanced, an effective interest rate of 14,299% (not a typo) That's not using debt as a 'tool', that is weaponizing it against those can't fend for themselves.

In principle, the debt market charges rates that are commensurate with the risk of repayment. Some studies[0] show a relatively high default rate for payday loans. Moreover, the people who borrow from these facilities likely have very poor credit scores.

That's not a comment on the fairness of the rate charged. But if there is a sufficient amount of competition among lenders, and they were effectively regulated and monitored, we could expect their rates are enough to allow them to make a reasonable profit in spite of the risk of default.

[0] https://thehill.com/regulation/237538-borrowers-default-on-n...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#824

Post by peferron »

duckfang wrote: post #808
parliament32 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And like I said, there's up and downsides, and it really depends on what you want out of your career. Some people want the 9-5 clock-in-clock-out with well-defined rules and tasks, scheduled raises and all that, so they can focus on their real life. Others actually like the work they do, and are comfortable working hard to get four promotions in a year and "messiah" treatment from management. I'm sure there are bad n…

> This, exactly this, is the problem with people in the union-mindset. "Oh it's unlimited, that means we don't need to work at all, right?" It means you have a certain amount of accountability and responsibility: "Hey, we just finished project X so I'm going to take Fri+Mon off to go camping" is a regular thing, without having to book your vacation dates a year in advance or deduct quarter-hours from your various "PT…

> "Unlimited PTO" isn't unlimited, and is a bad deal for the employee in all ways.

Then work for a company with fixed PTO. There are plenty of these; the vast majority, actually. Why are you so hell-bent on denying that choice to people who wish otherwise? Even worse, you're telling these people that they are wrong and that unlimited PTO cannot possibly be a good fit for them. How can you expect people not to disagree when they have first-hand experience of the contrary?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#825

Post by flavius29663 »

francilien wrote: post #788
flavius29663 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

Lidl in Germany has a minimum starting salary of 12,50€ per hour. With other benefits like 30 days of vacation. https://jobs.lidl.de/lidl-als-arbeitgeber/mindesteinstiegslo...

so...that's about 15 dollars. Do you consider them to be slaves too?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#826

Post by TulliusCicero »

nnvvhh wrote: post #567
TulliusCicero wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of obtuse comment is part of why pro-union people have such a hard time convincing any anti-union people. People have had bad experiences with unions protecting shitty employees far beyond what companies usually do, and the response amounts to, "NUH UHHH". If that's what people have actually experienced, telling them "actually what you saw with your eyes isn't reality" is not effective messaging.

The comment you responded to gave a response to multiple points, it's far from "nuh uh." Your characterization is inaccurate.

I'm specifically talking about dismissing concerns about how bad employees are protected or how promotions are handled.

> They don't either in the non-union corporate world either.

Basically, people have seen for themselves that unions seem to be anti-meritocratic beyond what companies they've seen do, and that's simply dismissed.

"No, you didn't actually see that."

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#827

Post by dvdkon »

2bitencryption wrote: post #280
aarongray wrote: post #127

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

This may be a bit of an ignorant question, but... Are "dying cities/slums" a purely American phenomenon, in terms of rich first-world countries? Is there similarly a "rust belt" in Germany, of cities that had an economic collapse after manufacturing died out? Are there rich European countries with flailing cities that devolve into crime and poverty? Does Europe have its own Bessemers, Detroits? (though I do hear Detr…

I don't have any first-hand experience, but here in the Czech Republic (not rich by any means, but still pretty up there) there are some places that have the reputation of ghettos. They're mostly located in border areas, which had a sizeable German population a were annexed by nazi Germany. After World War 2, most of the Germans were driven out and "resettled" under the communist regime. Add heavy industry and mining activity sometimes destroying the original towns and you can see how the region might not be the most cheerful place. Someone also had the brilliant idea of moving all the Roma from a town to a separate ghetto, which turned out as expected.

It's not that any city is altogether full of crime and poverty, personally I'd say they're just less desirable with full-on "crime and poverty" being noticeable only in some hotspots (but then again, I don't live there and only ever visit for short periods of time, so really all I can say is "it doesn't seem that bad").

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#828

Post by dfadsadsf »

avs733 wrote: post #586
flavius29663 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

I love the label unskilled. I don't think most of my colleagues in academia could physically complete a shift in an Amazon warehouse. Is that a skill? The labels unskilled and entry level are used to depress wage expectations not accurately represent the requirements of the work performed because the work is deemed to be of low economic value.

I did tour of Amazon warehouse (they used to run public tours) and most workers there did not look particularly fit or athletic. I would say that people in typical tech office looks more fit. Also Amazon gives you time to ramp up - while your collegues in academia may struggle first week, they will shape up pretty fast.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#829

Post by murderfs »

foepys wrote: post #437
bhupy wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The warehouse workers get the same (extremely generous) healthcare as every other Amazon employee (due to ERISA). And even if they didn't, through the Affordable Care Act, someone at that income level can buy a "Gold" plan with low deductibles for $75/month. Obviously for Amazon workers, that's irrelevant. K-12 education is free, and once you factor in-state tuition and FAFSA, university is also basically free for an…

Do they get free university with an interest free loan of which they only have to pay 50% and only up to 10,000€ back? And 20+ days vacation days plus 6 weeks paid sick leave plus 18 months job guarantee in case of a longer healing process while being paid 60% of their last wage? Plus 1-2 years unemployment benefits, also at 60% of last wage? Plus 60% paid for up to a year in case of being on furlough during a pandem…

Do they get coronavirus vaccines?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#830

Post by kenjackson »

yardie wrote: post #736
squidlogic wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a US native I’ve never had someone threaten to shoot me or show me they were armed to intimidate me. I’m not exactly living a sheltered life either. I have a few questions, sorry if this sounds like a lot I’m just really curious. What city are you in where this happens? What are you doing to provoke this kind of behavior? Why haven’t you moved away to somewhere safer?

Miami. A city with notoriously bad drivers some of them armed. It's better now but was a hell of a lot worse when I was growing up, the 90s. But you can pick any major city and ask a local where not to go, and just don't go there. Driving, riding my bike, walking. When I was a kid simply walking to school was enough. But people will threaten to shoot you for turning, not driving fast enough, merging, stopping, not st…

Road rage is definitely the fastest escalation path I've seen in the US. Do other countries have road rage the way the US does?
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