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Claude Code is steganographically marking requests

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Re: Claude Code is steganographically marking requests

#801

Post by CMay »

esarbe wrote: post #619
CMay wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly the world is full of actions and reactions, nothing is happening in a vacuum. You don't have to be from a country to take sides, but presumably you have some kind of moral compass, some kind of values around personal freedom or the worth of a human life. There can be a very real cost, because one side comes from an ideology with a history that wants to conquer the entire Earth which caused World War 2 while…

You sound like you've swallowed pro-US-propaganda hook, line and sinker. The reason the middle-east is at constant war is because colonialist machinations. Same goes for south-Saharan Africa. And the US is a big colonialist player, just ask Vietnam, South-America, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. They all have been attacked by the US because of US colonial interests. If anything, one could make the argument that the PRC is tr…

If you think those were about colonization, you would be well served to examine history closer.

Re: Claude Code is steganographically marking requests

#802

Post by marcus_holmes »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #788
marcus_holmes wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with most of this. A few points: SpaceX built great rockets before it became large (though this is relative - a small rocket company is a large hairdresser, for example). There is a certain scale required for some types of business, agreed. But getting larger doesn't necessarily make them better. > That description fits small business owners much better IMO. In our times, at least in non-failed weste…

> Flat disagree with this. Small org CEOs are close to their customers and employees and if they behave like dicks then they get punished quickly. Obviously some still do, because people, but it's harder for a small company CEO to continue being a dick. I'm thinking it might be both - depending on who the real customers are. I've seen plenty of what I described in "boring" B2C like... grocery stores. But thinking abo…

yeah I see where you're going. But it doesn't address the politics/management problem - large orgs invariably generate internal politics as their incentives get misaligned with their objectives (the root cause of the 5-layer "pure manager" situation becomes a problem). Large orgs have to actually split off a smaller org (that doesn't have this problem) to actually do anything new.

The Innovator's Dilemma is a symptom of the same problem: a large org with an existing market cannot innovate because the incentives for management do not allow cannibalising the existing product sales to launch the new product.

Re: Claude Code is steganographically marking requests

#803

Post by frognumber »

CMay wrote: post #800
frognumber wrote: post #790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe in good and bad. I don't believe in US good, non-US bad. I also don't believe the same about my religion or my political party, for that matter. How you measure depends on weights you assign (cultural system of values) and what information you use (media bias). You can rank in the extremes (e.g. North Korea as worse than Belgium), since they come out that way by almost any set of information and values. Com…

Most countries have some kind of story they tell about themselves. New Zealand doesn't have any illusions that it is a superpower. It doesn't have the resources, the talent pool or any of that to even begin to dream of it. That is natural. If New Zealand was powerful, then it would find itself in a position of greater responsibility. You cannot compare countries that barely have the option of ambition with something…

> These kinds of countries are the only ones that matter, because they're the ones that have to answer about what people were thinking when they chose to make use of their power in a way that is relevant on a larger scale.

This is an extreme claim, and incorrect. If you'd like to see counterexamples, you'll see many corrupt regimes in Africa, which did extreme harm to their own people. You'll see many regional powers.

One does not need to be a global superpower to be good or evil.

There's also nothing magical about Germany or Japan. Many countries had similar resources. Both chose to invest those resources into industrial militarism.

One can make the argument for a handful of countries which our outliers for land area or population, but in general, if any country chooses to invest in military and attack its neighbors, it has good odds of success.

> You have the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Russia, China and the US

Germany was an outlier, on the evil end, but otherwise, it's a selection of which facts one picks.

A comparison would require deciding which facts to compare on. For the US, the "evil" argument comes back to things like slavery and the genocide of the native peoples.

One can pick hundred of examples like Guantanamo Bay, fake vaccines in Pakistan, the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, the Tusla massacre, police violence, corrupt court, ...

The US does pretty nasty things, even if they don't always make US news or grade school textbooks.

> It's very cheap to label anything as propaganda without taking the time to appreciate whether it has any merit in terms of the overall behavior of a country or its people

This is an ad hominem, and a poorly placed one. You're discounting what people are telling you. A lot of the people here went through the US school system, learned "US rah rah rah" propaganda, and only deconditioned themselves as adults.

Many of us were where you are when we were younger.

Re: Claude Code is steganographically marking requests

#804

Post by sigmoid10 »

krupan wrote: post #769
sigmoid10 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said above, if you are worried about privacy while hooking up Claude Code, you need to reevaluate your understanding of this technology.

True. A lot of us missed the memo, or forgot it because of our amazement of LLMs

This is not some fundamental problem. There are amazing options that don't suffer this downside. Most people are just too lazy and want something that works out of the box, so they accept or ignore the inherent risks of tools like Claude Code or Codex. But you just have to invest a little bit of research into what you need and which open model and harness suits your requirements. Then you can have your cake and eat it too. Long term this will be the standard anyways, it's only difficult while the frontier is moving so fast and aimed at ridiculous IPOs.

Re: Claude Code is steganographically marking requests

#805

Post by Gareth321 »

frognumber wrote: post #783
Gareth321 wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So block people To be fair to Anthropic, [they're trying very hard to do that.]( https://www.anthropic.com/news/detecting-and-preventing-dist... ). The attacks are sophisticated and difficult to detect. I don't accept that if this fails, their only option is to just accept Chinese companies stealing IP.

They're not "attacks." Anthropic calling them "attacks" doesn't make them attacks. Companies are collecting transcripts of conversations with Anthropic, and giving users a discount to share them. As many have pointed out, they're collecting data in ways much less aggressive than Anthropic itself about what Anthropic does. Anthropic doesn't like it, but I don't see this as "Chinese companies stealing IP," any more tha…

Stealing IP is an attack. You might feel that Anthropic should just give away hundreds of billions in IP and capex, but that's not the way the world works, and I don't agree with you. They're taking enormous risk to build these models. They should be fairly compensated.

Re: Claude Code is steganographically marking requests

#806

Post by Gareth321 »

Grimblewald wrote: post #767
Gareth321 wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So block people To be fair to Anthropic, [they're trying very hard to do that.]( https://www.anthropic.com/news/detecting-and-preventing-dist... ). The attacks are sophisticated and difficult to detect. I don't accept that if this fails, their only option is to just accept Chinese companies stealing IP.

Them strugglig to prevent others from doing what they themsleves do, is my problem to a degree where I must pay for the pleasure to getting sabotaged? Are you fucked in the head? In what world are we "being fair" by claiming that? It takes a problem anthripic has hallucinated, and makes its consequences mine for no reason. Anthropic chose to create both this problem and it's consequences, why am I wearing it? If I de…

I don't think they have been caught distilling OpenAI's models. Do you have a link?

Re: Claude Code is steganographically marking requests

#808

Post by frognumber »

Gareth321 wrote: post #805
frognumber wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not "attacks." Anthropic calling them "attacks" doesn't make them attacks. Companies are collecting transcripts of conversations with Anthropic, and giving users a discount to share them. As many have pointed out, they're collecting data in ways much less aggressive than Anthropic itself about what Anthropic does. Anthropic doesn't like it, but I don't see this as "Chinese companies stealing IP," any more tha…

Stealing IP is an attack. You might feel that Anthropic should just give away hundreds of billions in IP and capex, but that's not the way the world works, and I don't agree with you. They're taking enormous risk to build these models. They should be fairly compensated.

What IP is being stolen?

IP is the code and possibly the weights.

No one is stealing IP.

And I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue the AI industry isn't being fairly compensated.

To go further: most people in the world wouldn't feel bad at all if we found a way to slow what's likely the biggest socio-polical-economic change in human history down a bit.

Re: Claude Code is steganographically marking requests

#809

Post by justcool393 »

nomel wrote: post #761
justcool393 wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> their IP it's not IP, and it's certainly not their IP > the TOS oh no, the terms of service how dare people break those. you don't get to claim fair use while CFAAing everyone's actual IP then whine about the tos, and then when called out on spying on users point to it as if it being in the tos somehow justifies it a lot of other malware has a tos too but we still call it for what it is

> it's not IP, and it's certainly not their IP I'm not a lawyer so maybe that is the wrong legal term for a model/service like this. Would you mind telling me the word I should have used?

"model" or "service" would be the term.

basically the point is that it's not protected because it doesn't fall under any classification of IP (it's not copyright or patent since it's mathematical outputs of a mechanical system, it's not trademark because obvious, and it's not a trade secret because it's not a secret)

Re: Claude Code is steganographically marking requests

#810

Post by CMay »

frognumber wrote: post #803
CMay wrote: post #800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most countries have some kind of story they tell about themselves. New Zealand doesn't have any illusions that it is a superpower. It doesn't have the resources, the talent pool or any of that to even begin to dream of it. That is natural. If New Zealand was powerful, then it would find itself in a position of greater responsibility. You cannot compare countries that barely have the option of ambition with something…

> These kinds of countries are the only ones that matter, because they're the ones that have to answer about what people were thinking when they chose to make use of their power in a way that is relevant on a larger scale. This is an extreme claim, and incorrect. If you'd like to see counterexamples, you'll see many corrupt regimes in Africa, which did extreme harm to their own people. You'll see many regional powers…

It's largely correct, but you're missing the point. For many countries, it does not matter whether they are good or bad on a grander scale, because their power is so limited that they are largely confined. Countries that exist on the lower end of the intellectual development scale are expected to fall apart.

Not all countries are structured the same, are at the same stage of development, or resourced enough enough to arrive at a sense of responsibility.

That is why these countries are different. The US is the most different, because it is the only one of its kind. There is no other country you can compare the US to.

A lot of negative things about the US are being misrepresented or inflated by propaganda without sufficient context. It isn't all positive, but the US is a huge country and our history didn't begin 250 years ago.

> One can pick hundred of examples like Guantanamo Bay, fake vaccines in Pakistan, the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, the Tusla massacre, police violence, corrupt court, ...

I could come up with way more examples than that, but for each example you have to ask the questions. You don't simply label an event and point at a face to say "bad, they did it and this is who they are". Is it true? Why did they do it. What were they thinking. Was it an accident, intentional, what was the context? What else was going on in the world, and what was the world like then? What were they up against? Was the choice easy or hard? Was the badness mitigated, or was it unmitigated badness?

> You're discounting what people are telling you. A lot of the people here went through the US school system, learned "US rah rah rah" propaganda, and only deconditioned themselves as adults.

Your unbalanced schooling is not a compelling argument for why I am wrong as much as it is a piece of evidence for why you lost perspective when you got older.

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