US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days • Hacker News Board

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#801

Post by bluelu » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

youeseh wrote: post #793

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

- Does the US prevent European tech companies from doing business in America? - Does the US prevent European people from finding work, moving to, and purchasing property in America?

China does not prevent american businesses to do business in China as long as they follow the law.

European and foreign businesses get much higher fines compares to local businesses (e.g. Volkswagen, Deutsche Bank, Bayer (e.g. just after buying Massato), Toyota, etc...)

On the other hand Europe allows american businesses to access the european market without following the local laws. No user data can be transfered to the USA where protection clearly is not adequate, still they do.

EDIT: You can downvote me, but it's all true:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/business/dealbook/volkswa...

"Criminal fines in the United States from 2001-12 were on average more than seven times the size for overseas entities than for American companies"

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#802

Post by gruez » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776

cwhiz wrote: post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

>Now that the US has shown it can ban foreign tech companies if it's in their own interest, and all the moralizing talk about the free market has been exposed as the self-serving propaganda it has always been

regardless of the administration's actual motivations[1], banning tiktok/wechat can be plausibly justified as retaliation for what china did. There's nothing contradictory or hypocritical about preaching the free market but also engaging in anti-free market in retaliation against non-reciprocating countries, just as there's nothing contradictory or hypocritical about preaching peace, but engaging in violence in retaliation against non-peaceful countries.

[1] eg. some people speculate that trump wanted tiktok banned because people shared videos on there that embarrassed him

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#803

Post by savingsPossible » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:20 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #695

dominotw wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's only reciprocity if you divide the world into two tribes, the "China tribe" and the "US tribe". It also works if we divide the world into "China tribe" and "rest of the world tribe" . Infact thats the way it always have been, now china is getting kicked out of "rest of the world tribe" . India and USA are just taking the lead, rest will follow. I am ok with that.

Why are you OK with that. Why is division between groups of people a good thing for you, is it that you want oligarchic rule to beat one-party dictatorial rule? Or you hate the Chinese fifth of the World population? USA will polarise things until a war with China becomes inevitable forcing those who want to trade freely with both parties to pick a side.

> Or you hate the Chinese fifth of the World population?

This is a spurious comparison. Every time someone accuses someone else of racism in this thread, there should be the same answer: The US (after a looong while!) is doing to Chinese companies the same China does to US companies. To ensure the benefits of globalization are not concentrated by China's protectionist policies

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#804

Post by jdietrich » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:20 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #685

tannhaeuser wrote: post #324

I don't get it. It's US companies standing to loose their stronghold (near monopoly) on social, advertisement, and other forms of monetizing the web if the US creates a precedent for "national security" in this way, as in "we're welcoming social networks and free speech as long as it benefits the US and can be searched without warrant." Quite predictably, governments all over the world will be pressurized to question…

China doesn’t allow many western companies to operate in China. Why should the US allow Chinese companies to operate in the US?? This is an outrage that we should not allow. They steal our intellectual property, create state funded companies that are given monopoly access to their markets, and then unleash their stolen products on the world market. And if American or other western companies try to compete on the grou…

>Why should the US allow Chinese companies to operate in the US?

The US gains very substantial economic benefits from being an attractive place for international companies to do business. Foreign investors know that when they invest in America, they're getting a stable regulatory environment and a reasonably trustworthy civil legal system. If America decides to undermine that trust for short-term gain, there will be a substantial long-term cost.

You might believe that hostile trade policies prevent American companies from competing in the Chinese market, but that's starkly contradicted by the number of American companies for whom China is a key market. Apple earn $11bn a year in China. Wal-Mart have thousands of stores there. Yum! Brands (KFC, Pizza Hut and Taco Bell) have 40% of the Chinese fast food market and make more revenue there than anywhere else. Starbucks have 70% of the Chinese coffee market. The shelves of Chinese convenience stores are groaning with American-owned brands.

An all-out trade war with China might be appealing, but be under no illusions that it'll be all upside for America. If China want to put the hurt on America, they have more levers to pull and more staying power. It's definitely not a fight you want to lose, but it might not even be a fight worth winning.

China aren't thinking about next quarter or next year, they're thinking about the next generation. Where does the US see itself in 2050?

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#805

Post by laurentoget » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

Enginerrrd wrote: post #796

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

[flagged]

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a27813648/concentratio...

on concentration camps, experts happen to differ with your opinion

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#806

Post by bitcurious » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #741

cwhiz wrote: post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

Are folks unaware of the history of westerners and trade in China, and how this kind of attitude could be interpreted by Chinese people not ignorant of their country's history? In the late 19th century Great Britain fought two Opium Wars to force China to open up its markets to British opium. The British were forcing Indian farmers to grow opium and then taking it to sell to China. They wanted access to Chinese silve…

Can you imagine asking “have the French forgotten what Napoleon did to the Italians?” to explain the inner functions of the European Union?

Modern Chinese geopolitics should not, and are not based on the events of two centuries ago. Any pretense of that nature is frankly condescending to the Chinese people.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#807

Post by MattGaiser » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #537

MattGaiser wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the ban will just be on the monetization. So they can keep TikTok and WeChat, but will not be able to profit from them.

It's pretty ridiculous to claim that "you can exist, but not do business" is anything other than a ban. What are they supposed to do, panhandle?

It makes it clearly a business conflict, not a free speech one.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#808

Post by laurentoget » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

Enginerrrd wrote: post #796

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "the entire western world"? As an European, why should we align with the US in this? The EU doesn't have any tech giant because, contrary to China, we have received US tech giants with open arms. So our economies bleed money and lose jobs to the likes of Amazon, because hey, "the free market". What do we stand to gain by siding with US companies in this US companies vs. China companies wars? Perhaps it would be b…

[flagged]

how is the executive order in the news today not preventing economic competition exactly?

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#809

Post by zolosa » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:23 PM UTC

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #761

bradleybuda wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because allowing Chinese companies to operate in the US is good for American consumers. This isn’t a zero-sum game.

Consider every concern about facebook having too much power on things like elections. Now imagine if facebook were controlled by an adversarial authoritarian regime.

Or looking at the PRISM program it's better to ban Facebook and it's children companies rather than imagining .

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#810

Post by bigpumpkin » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 3:23 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #778

baron_harkonnen wrote: post #772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations A world ruled by corporations headquartered in a single country, with other countries having their politics and economy determined by the interests a single nation has been the rest of the worlds situation for 50+ years. It's somewhat ironic to see Americans suddenly getting concerned about this. > Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese mar…

>The argument that if the Chinese market was fully open then their local companies would have been more quickly devoured by single, US based corporations doesn't do much to convince me that what the Chinese government is doing is wrong. If these companies were competing, and winning, on features and innovation, there would be no concern that the company originated from China. The point of that anecdote is that these…

"If these companies were competing, and winning, on features and innovation, there would be no concern that the company originated from China. The point of that anecdote is that these companies have crap products that are only competitive because there is no competition."

Try Instagram Reels and Tiktok and see which is the crap product.