Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#81

Post by neilellis » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 1:23 AM UTC

mrxd wrote: post #79

neilellis wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify: I'm saying it's our responsibility to change our behaviour. Inequality of any form is an imbalance of power, those who have been allocated or have taken greater power have I believe a moral imperative to re-balance the power as only they can return it without there being conflict. For sure women can fight to take back their power, but it wouldn't be nicer for everyone if we (men) just gave it back?

I just don't think moral arguments are going to be persuasive. The fact is people like having power and they don't let go of it easily.

We British abolished slavery without a war, gave votes to people, then to common people then to women. Each one was indeed fought for by individuals but those in power chose to relinquish that power.

Please don't give up on us human's just yet. Sometimes we do good things, and occasionally great things!

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#82

Post by jacalata » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 1:23 AM UTC

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #54

jacalata wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partly. The other problem is that when they do negotiate the way men do, they tend to get far more negative reactions (like having the job offer withdrawn). http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf

Well there's a market solution for that too - keep looking for better work if you believe you're worth more. Eventually smart employers will see the ridiculousness of what's happening, and hire all the otherwise competent workers who are being discriminated against for no good reason.

In theory, sure. In practice, this isn't a conscious behaviour practiced only by some crazy sexist get-back-in-the-kitchen minority, this is a pretty widespread unconscious reaction from the vast majority of american society.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#83

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 1:24 AM UTC

neilellis wrote: post #68

Dylan16807 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, fine. I downvoted you because you seem to be blaming him for answering a direct question and also for saying it's women's problem when he said it was management's responsibility. I can't tell for sure if you're actually blaming him or explaining yourself in a confusing way, but both of those are bad. You make valid points , but the way you tied them into the conversation makes your point confusing and/or non-se…

Can you see from my point of view though. That while making a valid comment which didn't include flamebait or hate etc. I see my comment goes to zero and is greyed out. It's pretty disheartening and unwelcoming to have that done to you. I apologise to others about this 'meta'-conversation but I do think it matters - as it genuinely discourages me from sharing my thoughts and may do the same to otehrs.

I get somewhat annoyed when a comment of mine is downvoted but I think you're taking it too strongly. Sometimes people don't like valid comments. And especially since votes fluctuate, don't worry about an initial downvote.

And I don't really agree with "down-voting someone is like flagging them". I only flag the rare completely indefensible troll/spambot comments.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#84

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 1:28 AM UTC

neilellis wrote: post #58

renata wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complaining a lot about downvotes is also sometimes a good way to earn them...

Ah I see, if you suggest there is something wrong with the system you get penalised by the system. My mistake :-)

If you suggest it in a thread about something entirely different, sure~

If you post about the system in a thread about the system, there won't be downvotes.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#85

Post by neilellis » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 1:29 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #65

blergh123 wrote: post #35

I'm actually surprised at how many people in the comments want to immediately defend or explain away his comments. It's pretty clear he meant what he said, and is now on the back foot attempting to undo the damage he did. Why does this kind of behavior need to be excused as 'out of context' or 'trolling'?

Best guess here, is that it's because a lot of people like Satya and have been optimistic about what he might do at Microsoft. If a bigger jerk said the same thing, you wouldn't see as many people seeking to explain it away. I think people naturally prefer to give a much greater benefit of the doubt to someone they think is nice. Also, as a new CEO in a very difficult job with high levels of 24/7 scrutiny, there's li…

That sounds reasonable, the problem is as ever that we human's have a problem separating the comment/action/thought from the person.

It's why we can't understand that Hitler was a vegetarian or Thomas Jefferson had slaves.

In reality we're a massively complex mismash of conflicting thoughts and emotions. Just like any country.

Yet we expect a consistency from the aggregate!

Personally speaking I can believe that he's a pretty decent person (probably more than I) and that he may well for all I know be trying to do his level best for gender equality. I only disagree with the statement, not the person. But the statement is very important when it comes from the head of one of the world's largest companies.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#86

Post by waterhouse » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 1:32 AM UTC

ChristopherM wrote: post #52

This is horrible advice, men and women both must push for a raise, companies will absolutely under no circumstances just give away raises because "it's the right thing to do". Case in point, I am a white male. When I started working at a company over a decade ago I also started at the same time as another white male. I started at $55k, he started at $52k I negotiated for an additional $3k from the start. The first ye…

I'm curious what you think of Ben Horowitz's "How to Minimize Politics in Your Company"[1]. He gives the specific example of an employee asking for a raise; he argues that responding by giving them a raise, even if it's reasonable, rewards behavior that has little to do with their job performance, which has undesirable secondary consequences. He says that the right way to deal with it is to have a good, regular, and standard process for evaluating employees and adjusting their compensation accordingly.

To a person who works at a company that doesn't have such a process, I'm sure your lesson applies. But I wonder what you think about what the company should do. Take the company you worked at as an example: should they have had some process by which they would have measured your performance and come to you (and perhaps your co-worker) with a raise? (More regular and performance-dependant than "+$2k/yr each year if you haven't been fired".)

Regarding the main topic of this thread: Perhaps Satya Nadella believes that Microsoft has such a process, and believes that no one should ask for a raise, and gave his advice as though all companies were like Microsoft. (Or perhaps someone has information contradicting this hypothesis.) pacaro's comment below suggests that, whatever else you might say about Microsoft's process, it doesn't reward asking for raises.

[1] http://www.bhorowitz.com/how_to_minimize_politics_in_your_co...

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#87

Post by neilellis » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 1:35 AM UTC

neilellis wrote: post #58

renata wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complaining a lot about downvotes is also sometimes a good way to earn them...

Ah I see, if you suggest there is something wrong with the system you get penalised by the system. My mistake :-)

Dylan, since I can't reply to your comments I have created a thread as you suggested here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8435831

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#88

Post by forrestthewoods » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 1:37 AM UTC

andlarry wrote: post #66

forrestthewoods wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protip: If you are a man you should reject any invitation to speak at a women's focused conference. At this conference in particular there was a bingo sheet for statements made by men. Any misstep will turn into a headline. It's crazy dangerous. Attendees also questioned, perhaps fairly even, a particular panel session that all men. Why were they there? Because they were invited! The only rational response is to turn…

> Why were they there? Because they were invited! The only rational response is to turn down such an invitation in the future. The Ada Initiative recommends[1] responding thusly: * Respond saying that you'd be honored, but the panel seems awfully heavy on the men, and can they find a qualified woman to join the panel? Here are some suggestions. * Respond saying that you have taken a pledge not to participate in all-m…

That's a response for a general panel at a general conference. Seems reasonable. However if it's a conference that focuses on women then by far the safest response is to stay away. If you like to live dangerously then their general case response works fine.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#89

Post by forrestthewoods » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 1:44 AM UTC

patrickdavey wrote: post #36

neilellis wrote: post #25

The essential problem here is that we're still talking about men telling women what they need to do. Because, hey it's their problem. Let's just get it clear, it is all about what we (men) need to do. Slavery wasn't an African person's fault. Xenophobia isn't a problem for foreigners to sort out. There is nothing wrong with realising that we have a privilege over another group in society and making efforts to become…

Check out http://heforshe.org/ ... launched recently enough I believe "A solidarity movement for gender equality"

That movement is organized by UN Women (United Nations). "UN Women is the UN organization dedicated to gender equality and the empowerment of women. A global champion for women and girls, UN Women was established to accelerate progress on meeting their needs worldwide".

I'm still waiting for a big movement that supports person equality and empowerment of people. A global champion for people and persons.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#90

Post by ChristopherM » Fri, Oct 10, 2014, 3:33 AM UTC

waterhouse wrote: post #86

ChristopherM wrote: post #52

This is horrible advice, men and women both must push for a raise, companies will absolutely under no circumstances just give away raises because "it's the right thing to do". Case in point, I am a white male. When I started working at a company over a decade ago I also started at the same time as another white male. I started at $55k, he started at $52k I negotiated for an additional $3k from the start. The first ye…

I'm curious what you think of Ben Horowitz's "How to Minimize Politics in Your Company"[1]. He gives the specific example of an employee asking for a raise; he argues that responding by giving them a raise, even if it's reasonable, rewards behavior that has little to do with their job performance, which has undesirable secondary consequences. He says that the right way to deal with it is to have a good, regular, and…

The company I spoke of did have a yearly review process, I also waited for that yearly review to come up before I objected to the pathetic raises which barely tracked inflation. When one starts out at entry level, one should quickly gain significant raises commensurate with ones skills and abilities. This company clearly tried to get away with doing as little as possible, I also happened to know that senior software engineers at that company in Colorado were making $120k+. Had I kept my mouth shut, sure, in a decade or two I also would have been making $120k+ but in 2020's dollars not 2000's dollars. The actual salary doesn't matter as much as what those dollars can buy.

As for Microsoft, I have no idea how their process works or if they even reward ambition and results. I did work for a larger company later, 6 months in they gave me a $13k raise and 6 months after that another $20k raise when they made me a manager. I never once brought up my salary, what I did do was point out what I thought was being done wrong and then proposed how to fix it. In this case I went to the CTO as my manager really wasn't managing the product at all, I thanked him for hiring me but told him I didn't think I was going to stay. He asked why and I described what it was we were doing and all the problems it was causing. I then followed it up with a solution of how to manage the product. I did not expect, nor even go in there with thoughts of taking over my manager's job. It was just an honest assessment of how to fix and drastically improve the efficiency of the group. One week later the CTO came to see me, privately. He told me they were very impressed with the work I was doing and they wanted to give me the opportunity to manage the product and the engineers working on that project. The first 6 months were probationary, after that I would be made full manager and get a salary increase. At that company, I never needed to negotiate my salary. They were always generous, they listened and were very proactive in keeping their employees happy.

In general though, my experience has been more like the first job. The companies, while having a yearly review process are very stingy. When it's time to hire a manager they bring in someone from the outside as they don't want to hire another engineer and retrain them.

As for Ben Horowitz's article, I would have quickly left any company that followed his advice. Telling me to wait, the company policies etc. I would see them for what they are, a stalling tactic. I would recognize that I was being "handled". With me I voice my opinion, I lay out the facts. If they are ignored, I don't complain, I don't bring it up again. I just quietly look for a new job, and any counter-offers after that point are immediately turned down. As things have gone according to plan, I don't even have to deal with this anymore, because now I have my own company, products and clients.