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Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

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Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#81

Post by harshreality »

ceejayoz wrote: post #44
xenophanes wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you want to discuss this seriously? If so, cite an actual study and say specifically what conclusion it reaches and specifically how that contradicts Szasz. You seem to be implying that Szasz and I hold our positions due to scientific ignorance, which is demonstrably false, and insulting. But maybe you didn't mean it that way.

http://www.szasz.com/manifesto.html > Mental illness is a metaphor (metaphorical disease). The word "disease" denotes a demonstrable biological process that affects the bodies of living organisms (plants, animals, and humans). The term "mental illness" refers to the undesirable thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of persons. Classifying thoughts, feelings, and behaviors as diseases is a logical and semantic error, like…

What does that say, other than: that, in a modern sociological environment, certain genetics-mediated brain differences cause people to behave (react) in different ways to their environment?

It says nothing about what inherently is a mental disease and what is not. Perhaps genetic differences causing certain mental "diseases" in average American society (or whatever society in which you conduct a study) actually benefit the individuals in societies with different cultures or structures. In the same way that certain non-psych heritable "diseases" confer some advantages and disadvantages (sickle-cell anemia and malaria, for instance). Fact is, many genetic differences that some people regard as undesirable are not even classified as diseases, even though they have advantages and disadvantages, if not for lifespan, certainly in social mobility within social environments.

tl;dr: it's patently obvious and beneath discussion that in certain genetic differences might lead two otherwise identical individuals to differ on whether they have different behavior, just as they might differ in many other ways. It's the determination that different behavior in some cases is a "disease" that seems to be at the heart of Szasz's critique of psychology.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#82

Post by saalweachter »

xenophanes wrote: post #29
Mz wrote: post #24

I get the impression that this is a long, polite way of saying Steve committed suicide. The last time I was on HN and the topic of suicide came up, I wrote kind of a ranty piece that I am not up to editing it (to remove the rantiness) and reposting. The short version: If you know someone who is suicidal and you care about them, spend time with them. In person. Suicide is almost always committed when one is alone. My…

So your credentials consist of personal anecdotes? Maybe it's time to start taking the issue more seriously. I think it's a serious issue deserving a more serious approach. For example, you might try reading literature with multiple different perspectives on the issue. Then try to figure out which ideas are right and why. (If you've already done this, forgive me, and please please inform me why Szasz is mistaken, I w…

I don't give two shits what Thomas Szasz thought about mental illness, because he wasn't a scientist or even a doctor, he was a goddamn libertarian philosopher. He found mental illness philosophically inconvenient because he couldn't see a way around the State being morally justified in providing coercive treatment to the mentally ill, so he just decided they didn't exist.

He was an asshole who spent sixty years shitting over real science to promote his politics, and you're an asshole for trying to promote his politics at a digital wake.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#83

Post by gknoy »

benwikler wrote: post #56

EMRo, I'm so so sorry about your loss and your family's loss. Thank you for writing about it. Please take care of yourself as well—and let others take care of you. Grief lasts a lifetime, but it won't always hurt as acutely as it does now. Along the way, you might find some of this helpful; I know I do. http://quinnnorton.com/revived/tips.html

As someone who has not yet lost my father, that was an amazingly powerful thing to read. Thank you for sharing it.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#84

Post by doktrin »

scott_s wrote: post #74
xenophanes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your credentials consist of personal anecdotes? Maybe it's time to start taking the issue more seriously. I think it's a serious issue deserving a more serious approach. For example, you might try reading literature with multiple different perspectives on the issue. Then try to figure out which ideas are right and why. (If you've already done this, forgive me, and please please inform me why Szasz is mistaken, I w…

What did Mz say that you are objecting to? Everything she said aligns with what I have read and heard about suicide.

If I understand the parent correctly, he agrees with a certain Thomas Szasz' [1] opinions on psychiatry. Central among his opinions is the assertion that mental illness is a "myth" due to the lack of observable changes at the cellular level (or at autopsy), and that mental illness patients are "malingerers".

My opinion : the dude sounds like an ass and his opinions are eye-rolling.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#85

Post by chimeracoder »

EMRo wrote: post #15
almosnow wrote: post #5

Care to say what was his actual problem was? And how did he passed out?

[redacted]

Just so you know, it's considered good form for journalists reporting on suicide to refrain from describing the method (to the extent possible)[0][1][2].

On a professional level, it is believed (and supported by some research) that this can be a trigger for people who read the article, potentially causing more suicides.

On a personal level (for you), you may want your brother remembered for his life, rather than evoking in readers' minds the image of his last moments alive.

[0] www.sprc.org/library/sreporting.pdf

[1] http://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-repo...

[2] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/mar/28/media-r...

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#86

Post by buzaga41 »

harshreality wrote: post #81
ceejayoz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.szasz.com/manifesto.html > Mental illness is a metaphor (metaphorical disease). The word "disease" denotes a demonstrable biological process that affects the bodies of living organisms (plants, animals, and humans). The term "mental illness" refers to the undesirable thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of persons. Classifying thoughts, feelings, and behaviors as diseases is a logical and semantic error, like…

What does that say, other than: that, in a modern sociological environment, certain genetics-mediated brain differences cause people to behave (react) in different ways to their environment? It says nothing about what inherently is a mental disease and what is not. Perhaps genetic differences causing certain mental "diseases" in average American society (or whatever society in which you conduct a study) actually bene…

Yes, I don't understand how is this study conduced since the diagnosis for bipolar disorder is not conclusive itself.. It doesn't tell anything on how it's purported that the brain is 'faulty'

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#87

Post by ghswa »

badclient wrote: post #66
Mz wrote: post #24

I get the impression that this is a long, polite way of saying Steve committed suicide. The last time I was on HN and the topic of suicide came up, I wrote kind of a ranty piece that I am not up to editing it (to remove the rantiness) and reposting. The short version: If you know someone who is suicidal and you care about them, spend time with them. In person. Suicide is almost always committed when one is alone. My…

If you know someone who is suicidal and you care about them, spend time with them. In person. Suicide is almost always committed when one is alone. 100%, although I wish we talked more about the challenge of determining that someone is suicidal. Here's what I wrestle with the most about this. I fear that if I "misdiagnose" someone as suicidal, that I might have now given them the idea that there is such a thing as su…

As somebody who's been there (on both sides) I don't believe that anybody who might act on suicidal ideation would not have already considered suicide as an option.

I'd say that, if you're worried, starting a conversation about it (in person) is just about the best thing you could do. A "missed diagnosis" is far worse than a "misdiagnosis".

Sorry for the pun.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#88

Post by wozniacki »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #64

Thank you for starting a conversation about this. I know it's difficult, but it's important for the health and wellbeing of many other people struggling with the same problems that there are conversations like this one. I've struggled with depression too, though never been suicidal. Both of my parents made multiple suicide attempts last year. I hope you don't blame yourself for not being there for your brother. You c…

Without sounding insensitive, may I ask what it is - that you think - that is at the root of this stripe of depression that you seem to be well acquainted with.

I know that this sort of thing cannot be easily summed up.

However, most of us on the outside have little clue about what sets these things in motion, for various individuals, in the first place.

Broadly and typically, is it a fundamental disillusionment with (and thereby rejection of) the state of affairs of the world and the person's place in that world?

Is it a sense of (perceived) total betrayal of the social contract?

I'm sure any elaboration would help others understand this better.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#89

Post by ceejayoz »

aforrester wrote: post #75
ceejayoz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.szasz.com/manifesto.html > Mental illness is a metaphor (metaphorical disease). The word "disease" denotes a demonstrable biological process that affects the bodies of living organisms (plants, animals, and humans). The term "mental illness" refers to the undesirable thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of persons. Classifying thoughts, feelings, and behaviors as diseases is a logical and semantic error, like…

How do twin studies rule out "environmental" that is, non-genetic, causes. Twins look alike, so if there are ideas about how people who look alike ought to act alike we would be expect a correlation between genes and behaviour that has nothing to do with the content of the genes. Rather, that behaviour would be motivated by similar ideas.

> How do twin studies rule out "environmental" that is, non-genetic, causes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study

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