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Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

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Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#51

Post by ceejayoz »

xenophanes wrote: post #43
ceejayoz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People labelled mentally ill can be imprisoned without a trial. So can people not labelled mentally ill, and involuntary confinement happens well within the confines of our legal and justice systems. > People labelled mentally ill can avoid prison when another person who did the same actions would go to jail. People found not guilty by reason of insanity are typically kept in a forensic unit with similar levels of…

So there's other bad things in the world, too. What's your point? Sometimes people who escape criminal justice via psychiatry get similar levels of freedom. Sometimes significantly less freedom! It can be a way to imprison people for an indeterminate sentence which may last longer than the maximum prison term for their offense. And, sometimes it's quite a lot like they are turned loose. All of these happen.

http://law.jrank.org/pages/1136/Excuse-Insanity-Empirical-da...

"Defendants who asserted an insanity defense at trial, and who were ultimately found guilty of their charges, served significantly longer sentences than defendants tried on similar charges who did not assert the insanity defense. Unsuccessful NGRI pleaders are incarcerated for a 22 percent longer time than individuals who never raise the plea."

Citations included there, by the way. For someone demanding citations, you're mainly throwing out "read Szalz!" and citing nothing.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#52

Post by BlackDeath3 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #44
xenophanes wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you want to discuss this seriously? If so, cite an actual study and say specifically what conclusion it reaches and specifically how that contradicts Szasz. You seem to be implying that Szasz and I hold our positions due to scientific ignorance, which is demonstrably false, and insulting. But maybe you didn't mean it that way.

http://www.szasz.com/manifesto.html > Mental illness is a metaphor (metaphorical disease). The word "disease" denotes a demonstrable biological process that affects the bodies of living organisms (plants, animals, and humans). The term "mental illness" refers to the undesirable thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of persons. Classifying thoughts, feelings, and behaviors as diseases is a logical and semantic error, like…

So thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are outside of biology? How does that work?

I realize that you are simply quoting a passage and not necessarily personally espousing what you wrote.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#53

Post by EMRo »

colept wrote: post #18
nobodysfool wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I feel that's kind of important to the whole thing. Talk about what the illness was, not about the person. For all I know it could be anything from autophagia to trichotillomania.

While it's a tragic loss, it's purpose is moot because many people read the entire thing and still don't know what his symptoms were. If you want to desensitize the discussion about mental illness, you need to expose the underlying conditions and make people aware.

This is true. I was an advocate of complete openness. My mother is understandably very sensitive about the wording used so I wanted to respect her wishes.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#54

Post by ceejayoz »

BlackDeath3 wrote: post #52
ceejayoz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.szasz.com/manifesto.html > Mental illness is a metaphor (metaphorical disease). The word "disease" denotes a demonstrable biological process that affects the bodies of living organisms (plants, animals, and humans). The term "mental illness" refers to the undesirable thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of persons. Classifying thoughts, feelings, and behaviors as diseases is a logical and semantic error, like…

So thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are outside of biology? How does that work? I realize that you are simply quoting a passage and not necessarily personally espousing what you wrote.

Just a note, I'm quoting that passage because I (and scientific evidence) disagree with it.

Thoughts, feelings, behaviours, and mental illness most certainly have biological bases, which makes Szalz's theories pretty loony.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#55

Post by vonmoltke »

xenophanes wrote: post #39
ceejayoz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Szasz thinks mental illness has no biological basis, which flies in the face of the empirical fact that twin/adoption studies have shown a clear hereditary basis for a variety of conditions like bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. Arguing that someone dying despite psychiatry invalidates psychiatry is like arguing cancer treatment is useless because some people die of cancer.

Do you want to discuss this seriously? If so, cite an actual study and say specifically what conclusion it reaches and specifically how that contradicts Szasz. You seem to be implying that Szasz and I hold our positions due to scientific ignorance, which is demonstrably false, and insulting. But maybe you didn't mean it that way.

You could start by countering Kendell, Shorter, and Clarke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz#Criticism

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#56

Post by benwikler »

EMRo, I'm so so sorry about your loss and your family's loss. Thank you for writing about it. Please take care of yourself as well—and let others take care of you. Grief lasts a lifetime, but it won't always hurt as acutely as it does now. Along the way, you might find some of this helpful; I know I do. http://quinnnorton.com/revived/tips.html

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#57

Post by PhasmaFelis »

xenophanes wrote: post #16

> he did all the things he was supposed to do to get help in a moment of crisis - made multiple calls to his care providers, to 911 and even went to the hospital. He had been experiencing symptoms for several years but was in a highly-respected treatment program that was working intimately with him. So in other words, conventional psychiatry failed. And the author's solution seems to be to spread it more. Maybe after…

I've just spent 20 minutes (all I can spare right now) reading up on Thomas Szasz, both at your link and on Wikipedia. He certainly had some good ideas (he's against homophobia and the drug war), but his position on mental illness seems to be that it doesn't exist, that people with debilitating mental conditions are faking it for attention or to get out of responsibilities, and that the correct response to someone considering suicide is to hand them a noose and say "have at it."

If you want me to take you or Szasz seriously, please demonstrate that all three of my assertions are incorrect, with citations.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#58

Post by EMRo »

benwikler wrote: post #56

EMRo, I'm so so sorry about your loss and your family's loss. Thank you for writing about it. Please take care of yourself as well—and let others take care of you. Grief lasts a lifetime, but it won't always hurt as acutely as it does now. Along the way, you might find some of this helpful; I know I do. http://quinnnorton.com/revived/tips.html

Thanks for sending that along. Trying to keep my head up and surrounding myself with family and friends.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#59

Post by dfc »

The fact that talking about mental health issues is beyond "the fringe of acceptable conversation" is harmful. I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to change on this front in order to prevent more tragedies. One small step would be to stop saying "lost the battle and passed from this world" and say "committed suicide."

We will not be able to engage in thoughtful, constructive and mature conversations if one of the unfortunate outcomes of mental illness is so taboo that we can not speak its name in public. Can you imagine a sexual education class where the teacher used terms like "thingies," "who-hahs" or "that other kind of sex"?

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#60

Post by pasbesoin »

Mz wrote: post #24

I get the impression that this is a long, polite way of saying Steve committed suicide. The last time I was on HN and the topic of suicide came up, I wrote kind of a ranty piece that I am not up to editing it (to remove the rantiness) and reposting. The short version: If you know someone who is suicidal and you care about them, spend time with them. In person. Suicide is almost always committed when one is alone. My…

Mz,

I continue to appreciate your honest and forthright approach to addressing issues such as this.

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