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Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

sciencebasedmedicine.org

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Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#81

Post by ronaldx »

gnur wrote: post #78
ronaldx wrote: post #69

Please note first that I am pro-vaccination. Vaccinations are a risk, which are designed to mitigate another (larger) risk. With this in mind, we shouldn't look at vaccines uncritically. The article points out that Japanese vaccinations were withdrawn because they were believed to be causing aseptic meningitis - it's a shame that no numbers are mentioned on that side of the coin. The comparative risk of vaccination o…

Your wording is one of the reasons people skip on vaccinations. > Vaccinations are a risk, which are designed to mitigate another (larger) risk. People don't understand risks, the lottery is one excellent example of people that don't understand basic probability. The difference between 1 in 10.000 chance of death vs 1 in 1.000.000 of sickness is huge, but when presented to most people the risk seems the same (very sm…

> Your wording is one of the reasons people skip on vaccinations.

Unfortunately, my choice of wording is not the problem... you are welcome to restate what I said, if you like.

In the case of vaccinations, it is economically rational to skip a vaccination (from a selfish point of view) - you receive the majority of the benefit from herd immunity and don't have to take the risk of the vaccination.

The fact that people almost always do choose to take vaccinations shows that we humans have a good altruism and excellent appreciation of the consequences in wider society. I don't think policy should undermine that by disguising the mathematical truth of the situation.

In most cases, we trust that people can judge their own risks. Every medicine has a list of side-effects with their possible risk attached. Vaccinations should really be no different.

(We can argue about your lottery example another time - there are several rational reasons to play)

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#82

Post by bowlofpetunias »

robbiep wrote: post #43
venomsnake wrote: post #23

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

in a few years there will be an outbreak of something preventable There's an outbreak of preventable childhood measles in England at this very moment

Same thing in the Netherlands. No surprise: all in the Bible Belt.

This is a map of the Dutch Bible Belt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Belt_%28Netherlands%29 , and this is a map of the epidemic: http://www.nrc.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ANP-23877900-56...

And just for clarity: these are areas with a low population density.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#83

Post by StavrosK »

robbiep wrote: post #43
venomsnake wrote: post #23

I saw a kid with polio deformed legs a few months ago. Something that I have never seen while the immunization calendar was state mandated and I was young. I have also never seen a case of autism. In a few years we will have outbreak of something preventable. I just feel poor for all the kids that had real reasons not to get the shots. A friend of mine after very bad Hodgkin was with compromised immune system for 10…

in a few years there will be an outbreak of something preventable There's an outbreak of preventable childhood measles in England at this very moment

Did the antivaccination craze reach the UK too?

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#84

Post by altero »

dalke wrote: post #71
altero wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is profit to be made in vaccines, sure. But it's hardly the same as in patented drugs. But there is also good chance to convince government to buy huge quantities. Flu kills and becomes pandemic nearly every year. Bird/pig flu was just a bad year. There are more effective measures to fight flu. For example closing schools for couple of weeks. Also employers should allow tele-commuting during flu seasons.

Nah, that's a poor argument. The medical industry would make more money if they let the people get sick so they need to be hospitalized for weeks or even, in the case of some polio victims, need to be in an iron lung for the rest of their lives. (In Ontario, for example, a cost-benefit analysis shows that a universal free influenza inoculation program reduces costs of the medical system; see http://www.plosmedicine.o…

> The medical industry would make more money

There is strong competition in medical industry. One company sells vaccine, some others sells medicine and hospital equipment.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#85

Post by contingencies »

ghshephard wrote: post #77
contingencies wrote: post #63

The notion that we can secure ourselves from disease through immunization is clearly valid for the subset of known treatable diseases. With pure untamed conjecture, I suspect, however, that the behavioural and psychological effects of the greater population's immunity to such diseases serve primarily to reinforce the modern 'medical miracle' that may, longer term, in fact leave us in a state of reduced immune perform…

Vaccines do the precise opposite of what you just wrote - they expose you to huge numbers of viral particles ramping up your immune system so a state of enhanced immunity performance. When you travel to foreign countries, you tend to take a number of vaccines just so that your body is ready to fight off the endemic diseases that are prevalent in the region you are traveling to.

Vaccines do the precise opposite of what you just wrote...

Yes, but only for one specific disease.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#86

Post by anon1385 »

StavrosK wrote: post #83
robbiep wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in a few years there will be an outbreak of something preventable There's an outbreak of preventable childhood measles in England at this very moment

Did the antivaccination craze reach the UK too?

It started in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#87

Post by misnome »

StavrosK wrote: post #83
robbiep wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in a few years there will be an outbreak of something preventable There's an outbreak of preventable childhood measles in England at this very moment

Did the antivaccination craze reach the UK too?

We had our very own, home-grown craze!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#89

Post by bayesianhorse »

altero wrote: post #84
dalke wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, that's a poor argument. The medical industry would make more money if they let the people get sick so they need to be hospitalized for weeks or even, in the case of some polio victims, need to be in an iron lung for the rest of their lives. (In Ontario, for example, a cost-benefit analysis shows that a universal free influenza inoculation program reduces costs of the medical system; see http://www.plosmedicine.o…

> The medical industry would make more money There is strong competition in medical industry. One company sells vaccine, some others sells medicine and hospital equipment.

In theory maybe. The data suggests that the same companies are providing vaccines and drugs.

Competition in the US Health System certainly doesn't do a good enough job at driving costs down...

I don't like to use these strong words, but I do find it dangerous and reckless when people with nearly no medical knowledge want to reason against proven methods on the basis of costs and the hatred of "evil, profit seeking companies".

If mistakes were made it's up to the medical establishment to judge about and avoid them in the future. Anticapitalists should not play a role in that.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#90

Post by bayesianhorse »

auctiontheory wrote: post #31

Yes, I think we should all be vaccinated, as the powers that be confidently tell us. And as a consumer of medicine, I observe that doctors are equally confident when they really don't know what they're talking about, and when their opinions aren't substantiated by science. (The command to wear padded running shoes, for instance.) And I know that the CIA organized a fake "vaccination drive" to get Osama bin Laden. So…

The fake vaccination drive is going to do a lot of harm to the efforts of help organizations. Especially muslims showed in the past and present that they can hold a self-damaging grudge for a long time...

In India for example, a lot of Muslims still believe almost any medical treatment by the government, especially contraception, can lead to sterilization. To be fair, there was a time in India when, especially Muslims, were sterilized against their will. This was a crime against humanity in my opinion, but the lack of trust is still damaging them.

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