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U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#81

Post by Cadsby »

angersock wrote: post #57
speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

Now, you can hardly judge a country on one or two acts of unrelated political activism abroad... :P More seriously, it's complex--painting it in the simplest broad strokes of "The US only cares about corporations" is unfair. The US is not the US; it's a combination of local, state, and federal governments and bureaucracies. There's almost certainly near no magical evil council sitting atop it all scheming about how t…

It's always "complex" when it's our (the US) government involved.

When it's the actions of others, especially official enemies, it's usually regarded in pretty straight forward right/wrong terms. For example, for those old to remember, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 80's was recognized for what it was, pure aggression.

Our military actions abroad? Well, it's complex, nobody's perfect, we all make mistakes, we had the best of intentions, etc, etc.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#82

Post by 3pt14159 »

speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

Chile is an interesting example because it is one of very few areas where US action saved a large number of people from death. In case it matters, I'm against interventionism and I'm Canadian, but I've visited both Cuba and Chile and even the nicest parts of Cuba are worse than the sketchy port city of Chile.

If I were Chilean I wouldn't be outraged. And many of the Chileans that I talked to were not. I think there are better examples of misused American power. Like encouraging war between Iran and Iraq, arming Mexican drug cartels, invading Canada under the auspices of Manifest Destiny, Japanese internment camps, slaughter of First Nations. Intervention in Chile was wrong, but it can also be used by neocons as a banner for effective Real Politik thinking and outcomes.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#83

Post by madaxe »

angersock wrote: post #57
speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

Now, you can hardly judge a country on one or two acts of unrelated political activism abroad... :P More seriously, it's complex--painting it in the simplest broad strokes of "The US only cares about corporations" is unfair. The US is not the US; it's a combination of local, state, and federal governments and bureaucracies. There's almost certainly near no magical evil council sitting atop it all scheming about how t…

> There's almost certainly near no magical evil council sitting atop it all scheming about how to wring profits from other countries at any cost

You're evidently not familiar with the concept of lobbying.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#84

Post by rsingel »

angersock wrote: post #57
speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

Now, you can hardly judge a country on one or two acts of unrelated political activism abroad... :P More seriously, it's complex--painting it in the simplest broad strokes of "The US only cares about corporations" is unfair. The US is not the US; it's a combination of local, state, and federal governments and bureaucracies. There's almost certainly near no magical evil council sitting atop it all scheming about how t…

If you don't think there's the equivalent of an evil council, you need to read up on Kissinger.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_wor...

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#85

Post by madaxe »

Cadsby wrote: post #81
angersock wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, you can hardly judge a country on one or two acts of unrelated political activism abroad... :P More seriously, it's complex--painting it in the simplest broad strokes of "The US only cares about corporations" is unfair. The US is not the US; it's a combination of local, state, and federal governments and bureaucracies. There's almost certainly near no magical evil council sitting atop it all scheming about how t…

It's always "complex" when it's our (the US) government involved. When it's the actions of others, especially official enemies, it's usually regarded in pretty straight forward right/wrong terms. For example, for those old to remember, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 80's was recognized for what it was, pure aggression. Our military actions abroad? Well, it's complex, nobody's perfect, we all make mistakes,…

So, the Iranian revolution was right? The installation of countless dictators was right? Guantanamo is right? Torture is right?

The US's moral compass was thrown overboard decades ago.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#86

Post by jbuzbee »

_account wrote: post #80
salimmadjd wrote: post #10

This is so strange! When was a last time AP released anything that wasn't more than government PR. On many important issues like lead up to Iraq war and now to a potential Iran war, AP has just reported what's been expected of them. My thought is the wiretap was set to catch potential whistleblowers than to do anything with reporters or AP itself.

It's not strange at all. If the AP's sources just disappeared, the word would be out to any future sources/marks that the AP gives up sources...but if the big bad government did this rare, but effective overreach...the spooks can still terminate the leak and the AP has plausible denial. The CIA wants to maintain the AP's ability to lure in more leaks in the future.

Oh, another complex conspiracy theory. Rolls eyes...

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#87

Post by tptacek »

theflyingkiwi42 wrote: post #51
tptacek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judith Miller was jailed for refusing to out Bush administration sources who outed Valerie Plame's status as a covert operative as political retribution.

Lewis Libby did not out Valerie Plame's status. It was reporter Robert Novak who did. It was also never 'leaked' as political retribution. "In late August 2006, former U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage revealed publicly that Novak had based his disclosure of Mrs. Wilson's CIA identity on then still-classified information that Armitage initially gave him while Armitage was still serving in the State Depa…

That is an interesting new definition of "out", where telling a reporter doesn't count, but the reporter's story does.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#88

Post by hga »

beedogs wrote: post #73
hga wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Second amendment's been gone for a while. " Not even close. True if you live in one of 10 very bad states, two of which oddly are shall issue concealed carry ones that just went very bad (Connecticut and Colorado), but continuing that concealed carry theme, i.e. the "bear" in "the right to keep and bear arms" (RKBA), there's been a nationwide sweep of shall issue, starting in Florida in 1987 and ending with Iowa an…

> since it's the ultimate check on an out of control government. Realistically, a bunch of pea-shooters stand no chance against the US military. This holds true whether it's Americans or hired sub-Saharan mercenaries driving the tanks.

"Amateurs discuss tactics, professionals discuss logistics."

Forgot to add: a "pea shooter" would be a lot better description of the US rifle/carbine that's been issued since the '60s, especially with its FMJ ammo.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#89

Post by hga »

tptacek wrote: post #30
mpyne wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's allowable. In fact I thought last decade some reporter went to prison for years for "contempt of court" for refusing to comply with a valid subpoena (but I forget the name).

Judith Miller was jailed for refusing to out Bush administration sources who outed Valerie Plame's status as a covert operative as political retribution.

The CIA assumed in the first half of the '90s that Aldrich Ames burned her covert status, so she was withdraw from that role long before any of this happened. Just another desk bound "operative" in McLean, Virginia, where there's a highway turnoff sign to the HQ.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#90

Post by _account »

jbuzbee wrote: post #86
_account wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not strange at all. If the AP's sources just disappeared, the word would be out to any future sources/marks that the AP gives up sources...but if the big bad government did this rare, but effective overreach...the spooks can still terminate the leak and the AP has plausible denial. The CIA wants to maintain the AP's ability to lure in more leaks in the future.

Oh, another complex conspiracy theory. Rolls eyes...

I don't see how this theory is either complex or a conspiracy.
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