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Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

rackspace.com

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Re: Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

#81

Post by knappe »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #80
CamperBob2 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with getting rid of patents also has a biological analogue, unfortunately. Particularly beyond a certain age/career rank, patents are used to "signal" one's merit as an engineer. Obviously it's a false signal from a technical perspective but the social aspect is ironclad. There is a pecking order among old-school engineers, and the first number they pull out in any discussion from a polite professional ar…

Nowhere in the article (unless my reading skills have gone to pot...which is possible) did Rackspace propose destroying the patent system. They are talking about invalidating a particular patent, thereby de-clawing a particular troll. It's also interesting that, in my nearly 20 years in the industry, I've never met anybody who actively bragged about their patents. I think there might be a little agism coming through…

I have, but they're also 25. They're slightly sheepish about the number of patents that they hold, but only to a degree. It is still a point of pride as well.

I've also worked for a large telecom that had each and every patent granted at each office up on the wall so that you could see it as you walked in.

Re: Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

#82

Post by toasterlovin »

ScottBurson wrote: post #66
toasterlovin wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was plenty of invention before patents existed as a legal concept. Patents exist because some people who came up with clever ideas thought (properly) that it was in their best interest to be granted a legal monopoly on the implementation of their ideas and lobbied lawmakers to grant them these monopolies. Patents did not come into being because we, as a society (speaking as an American), determined that our pac…

Have you researched the history of patents? I'm no expert, but my understanding is that they were established in response to the guild system, in which a lot of technical knowledge was kept secret. Invention may have been occurring, but it didn't benefit the larger society the way it could have.

As far as I am aware, there is no compulsory license in the United States patent system, so while patents aren't more restrictive of the _spread_ of technical knowledge, they certainly could prevent the _use_ of technical knowledge. So, like, what's the point? Seems like a lacking solution to the problem you propose.

Also, I am skeptical that guilds were historically the major impediment to the spread of technical knowledge. After all, once ideas are lodged in your mind, nobody can unlodge them, whether by force or persuasion, not even your own self.

I would look instead to the historically enormously high cost of travel and book printing. Since people and books are the carriers of ideas (historically, at least; now we have the Internet), this seems like a more direct explanation.

Re: Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

#83

Post by belorn »

drakaal wrote: post #16

Patent trolls suck. But with out patents there is no incentive for innovation. The issue is not that Patents are bad, it is that you can patent a "unique way to swing on the playground" and be awarded a patent. Patent officer often don't know what they are awarding a patent for. This is supposed to be kept in check by the fact that you can fight a patent. I think that if you file a patent, sue someone over it, and lo…

Why do people continue to claim that without state intervention of granted government monopolies, no one would ever create new things?

A patent, meaning a state enforced monopoly, meaning a method of taxation outside congress, is a method for the government to redistributive wealth. By artificially increase price and distribute that money back to investors, government argue that future investing is incentivized.

One is free of course to argue if such incentives actually happens or not, but I do not see how that could ever mean that no more intervention would ever happen if the government intervention stopped. Where does this insight come from, and is there any data to support it? Are the IT market really that unstable that it must get a constant flow of government generated money to justify investing in new products?

And why is this state granted monopolies granted with an exact 20 years duration with no thought of maximizing efficacy of government funded incentivies? Could 10 years give 90% as much incentives as 20? Is there alternative ways maybe thats less costly to society but as effective? Surely, improving the process in how the government intervene in the market is a noble goal?

Re: Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

#84

Post by toasterlovin »

drakaal wrote: post #24
toasterlovin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But with out patents there is no incentive for innovation." Aren't all of the tech companies who are supposedly violating these patents proof that the patents aren't needed for innovation? Isn't making a better product so you can have a leg up on your competition incentive enough?

For obvious things like this, there shouldn't have been a patent issued. If I however invent the first hyperspace engine, You shouldn't be able to buy one, take it a part and make your own. That is what patents are supposed to protect. Cotton Gins, and Hyperspace engines. Not Rotate your screen on your phone like you do on your tablet.

"If I however invent the first hyperspace engine, You shouldn't be able to buy one, take it a part and make your own."

Why not? What is special about non-obvious ideas, that they should not be as freely transmitted as obvious ones?

Also, why should the first person to file for a patent on an idea be the person who gets the monopoly on the idea? With 7 billion minds on this planet, even for non-obvious ideas, it seems highly likely that other people will independently come up with the same idea. It seems so arbitrary that the first person to file some paperwork is the only person to be rewarded.

Re: Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

#85

Post by geoka9 »

coolj wrote: post #26
drakaal wrote: post #16

Patent trolls suck. But with out patents there is no incentive for innovation. The issue is not that Patents are bad, it is that you can patent a "unique way to swing on the playground" and be awarded a patent. Patent officer often don't know what they are awarding a patent for. This is supposed to be kept in check by the fact that you can fight a patent. I think that if you file a patent, sue someone over it, and lo…

It's not 8x, but Rackspace is lobbying[1] for a bill that would allow courts to make patent trolls pay for all of the cost incurred by the defending party in a failed suit[2]. [1] http://www.rackspace.com/blog/patent-trolls-make-them-pay/ (last paragraph) [2] http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c113:H.R.845%3A

But trolls are usually shell companies, aren't they?

What's to stop them from declaring bankruptcy and wash their hands of the whole thing?

Since the troll's targets would probably have to pay their lawyers upfront, I don't see how this bill would make any difference.

Re: Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

#86

Post by geoka9 »

clayFrance76 wrote: post #56

If you abolish the patent, you would then become like China and Russia and a few of the other countries where lots of STEALING takes place...Hence, a dive in creativity would happen, just like you see in China and Russia for the last 100 or so years since socialism and communism. Also, China, only very very few are rich, definitely less than the USA's 1 percent. And only those in power make the decisions, those littl…

Soviet Russia was pretty inventive in high tech.

As a matter of fact, they did have patents in the Soviet Union, although those were more like a commendation badge, not a monopoly to reap the benefits; but it seemed to work.

Re: Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

#87

Post by [deleted] »

toasterlovin wrote: post #52
spartango wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It totally depends on the field. In software, perhaps this would work nicely, because rapid iteration and expansion prevails. That said, in the pharmaceutical or material science worlds, the cost and pace of research require that protection be afforded to those who choose to invest and disclose the fruits of their labor to the world. It's not so black and white that there are no incentives for disclosed innovation, b…

There was plenty of invention before patents existed as a legal concept. Patents exist because some people who came up with clever ideas thought (properly) that it was in their best interest to be granted a legal monopoly on the implementation of their ideas and lobbied lawmakers to grant them these monopolies. Patents did not come into being because we, as a society (speaking as an American), determined that our pac…

[deleted]

Re: Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

#88

Post by hkmurakami »

takluyver wrote: post #65
lukifer wrote: post #29

I've been thinking about the connection between biological signaling and advertising; like colored plumage or a large chest cavity, a multi-million ad campaign is a hard-to-fake signal, and in a way, such campaigns are as much about overt displays of power than the contents of the ad. In that sense, this move is the pinnacle of the best form of advertising. Whether they are acting out of pure altruism or pure strateg…

Actually, there's another similarity to biology. This also advertises to any other patent trolls thinking of suing them 'We are willing and able to fight back'. So patent trolls will pick on some other company that's more likely to pay up. Some species of antelope, when pursued by a predator, will suddenly leap high into the air, jumping from all four feet at once. This is called stotting, and the best theory for why…

Your fantastic description/imagery prompted me to look this up :)

"A chance to see springbok antelopes, the most successful grazing animals in the Southern African Kalahari desert as they attempt to ward off a family of hungry cheetahs by jumping up to two metres into the air. "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr5Sru8gGSk

Re: Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

#89

Post by belorn »

ScottBurson wrote: post #66
toasterlovin wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was plenty of invention before patents existed as a legal concept. Patents exist because some people who came up with clever ideas thought (properly) that it was in their best interest to be granted a legal monopoly on the implementation of their ideas and lobbied lawmakers to grant them these monopolies. Patents did not come into being because we, as a society (speaking as an American), determined that our pac…

Have you researched the history of patents? I'm no expert, but my understanding is that they were established in response to the guild system, in which a lot of technical knowledge was kept secret. Invention may have been occurring, but it didn't benefit the larger society the way it could have.

One legal theory behind patents is that they were a tool to incentivize immigration. It benefited the United States even before it was the United States, as people was encouraging to stay in the country during the duration of exclusivity, and gave the country a working model of the invention so people could learn. Before patents, many invention was treated as city or state secret.

I can recommend a very interesting talk by Professor Eben Moglen, who teach law history and actually read discussions that happened between the people who wrote and worked with the first implementation of the US patent law (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPzpBn-XGxw).

Re: Abolish The Patent, Vanquish The Troll

#90

Post by hkmurakami »

mark212 wrote: post #60
lukifer wrote: post #29

I've been thinking about the connection between biological signaling and advertising; like colored plumage or a large chest cavity, a multi-million ad campaign is a hard-to-fake signal, and in a way, such campaigns are as much about overt displays of power than the contents of the ad. In that sense, this move is the pinnacle of the best form of advertising. Whether they are acting out of pure altruism or pure strateg…

the signalling isn't primarily to current and prospective customers, it's to other trolls out there. The $75k (negotiable) offer of compromise is on the low end of such demands and the signal to other NPEs thinking about suing Rackspace is Be Prepared for War. That customers think this is a good thing and burnishes Rackspace's reputation for being on the side of developers, etc. is a nice bonus.

In that light, the strongest anti-patent-troll signaler has got to be Newegg and their legal team:

"Then they pop up and say, "Hello, surprise! Give us your money or we will shut you down!" Screw them. Seriously, screw them. You can quote me on that." -- Newegg Chief Legal Officer Lee Cheng

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/01/how-newegg-crushe...

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