How much sleep do we really need to work productively? • Hacker News Board

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#81

Post by btilly » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 10:03 PM UTC

randallsquared wrote: post #72

chimeracoder wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are bad doctors, and there are cursory or improper diagnoses, but that does not make the valid diagnoses any less valid, or the invalid diagnoses any more valid. All doctors, from radiologists to orthopedic surgeons, are told not to self-diagnose, and psychiatric conditions are the easiest to improperly self-diagnose, even for trained professionals (which most people on HN are not). On top of that, ADHD is…

> Yes, there are bad doctors, and there are cursory or improper diagnoses, but that does not make the valid diagnoses any less valid, or the invalid diagnoses any more valid. It calls into question, somewhat, whether there actually are any valid diagnoses, if a disease is well-known to be very commonly diagnosed improperly.

In the case of ADHD there happens to be sufficiently good evidence of real cases, along with brain scans showing what is happening inside of the brain, that we can be very confident that the disorder is real.

However if a random person claims to have it, we may not be confident that they were correctly labeled.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#82

Post by btilly » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 10:05 PM UTC

GHFigs wrote: post #73

btilly wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The division here is between the underlying causes of the distractibility. And that's a pretty important distinction to make. Many things can cause distractibility, from sleep deprivation to thyroid disorders. ADD/ADHD is only one of them. The effective treatment for any of these will not help the others. That is why the DSM-IV includes as a diagnostic criteria that you have to screen for other possible causes of the…

The effective treatment for any of these will not help the others. This isn't entirely true. A person that isn't getting enough sleep can "fix" the problem with ADD medications, and thus maintain the erroneous belief that they have ADD and therefore require that medication. How often that happens is debatable, but it is one of the (many) things that lead to over-diagnosis.

Good point.

And since a side-effect of the medication is trouble sleeping, I could see a vicious cycle starting.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#83

Post by kelnos » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 10:23 PM UTC

I'm always frustrated by suggestions to take a 20-30 minute nap during the afternoon. I just can't do that. Even when I'm fairly tired and I go to bed for the night, it can take me 45-60 minutes to fall asleep. There's no way I'm going to fall into even a light sleep in 20-30 minutes in the afternoon when I'm only vaguely (if at all) fatigued.

Then again, my "sleep hygiene" is fairly bad overall: I regularly go to bed ~4am, I can rarely sleep for more than 5 hours without waking up (and I don't feel fully rested after that), and I usually spend 45-60 minutes snoozing my alarm before I get up (10-11am). Hopefully I'm not typical. I should probably get a sleep study done.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#84

Post by Xcelerate » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 11:10 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #80

Xcelerate wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I am. I'm in shape (was D1 runner) and 22. Who knows though.

I've known people who have had it, and were in their twenties and in excellent physical shape.

Hmm. Thanks. I will look into it then.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#85

Post by walid » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 11:11 PM UTC

SeanDav wrote: post #27

crazygringo wrote: post #6

> “Sleeping 8.5 hr. might really be a little worse than sleeping 5 hr.” How can people even take this kind of pseudo-science seriously? If I sleep for 5 hrs, I'm a complete zombie during the day, unproductive and depressed. If I sleep for 8.5 hrs (which is how long I sleep naturally), I feel great, productive, and happy. I get way more done. There are all sorts of studies showing all the negative effects of not getti…

How is an expert on sleep saying something MIGHT be true now being classed as pseudo science and not to be taken seriously? Your rebuttal of this "pseudo science" is that you perceive that you personally need 8.5 hours sleep - now that smacks of pseudo science to me. People are very different. Just because 1 person in a 1000 (or 100 or million or whatever) benefits from 8.5 hours sleep does not necessarily mean that…

This article is worse than pseudo science. It is just a bunch of inaccuracies. One thing that caught my attention is how he quotes a study out of context:

"The sleep deprived person can in fact deliver the exact same results as someone who isn’t sleep deprived in any exercise. That is, given it is a non repeated exercise and they give it their best shot."

This phenomenon is called neuron tiring and he makes it sound like someone only carries out wrong judgements sparingly whereas it is more like when person is exhausted from running. The person's legs don't turn off, they are tired. They are still useable and could probably sprint for a very short distance but will eventually start shaking. If the person tries to sprint again, he can but still not for long. This is what being tired or sleep deprived does. You can go for very short sprints but you fail at endurance.

And the 8 hours thing is a mean and it is not pseudo science. Google actual medical sources and see for yourself.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#86

Post by randomsearch » Mon, Apr 01, 2013, 11:32 PM UTC

I did some experimenting with this.

According to the UK's NHS website, adults need 7-9 hours a day, and it depends on the individual.

I started with 9 hours, every single night, going to bed and getting up at the same time. After less than a week, I started waking up 30-60 mins before my alarm. So I cut it to 8.5 hours, and then 8 hours etc.

With some refinement, I found somewhere just over 8 works. I really don't think it's any more complicated than that for most people.

The big problem is sleeping well and socialising a lot. The best approach I've found to that is to bank an extra bit of sleep when you can, although this is controversial.

My Dad always reminds me when I'm working hard: "the secret to stamina is sleep." It's a pain, but it's essential if you want to do good work and stay focused.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#87

Post by cwbrandsma » Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 12:04 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #6

> “Sleeping 8.5 hr. might really be a little worse than sleeping 5 hr.” How can people even take this kind of pseudo-science seriously? If I sleep for 5 hrs, I'm a complete zombie during the day, unproductive and depressed. If I sleep for 8.5 hrs (which is how long I sleep naturally), I feel great, productive, and happy. I get way more done. There are all sorts of studies showing all the negative effects of not getti…

OK, your personal anecdote compared to mine:

If I sleep for 5 hrs, I'm completely fine. I can do that for days on end. If I sleep for 9 hrs, I'm completely fine as well.

The reality, and from what I've read by cognitive scientists (there are a few), there is no set number of hours of sleep a person needs. For the right person 5 hours is great. For others it isn't. Which is a whole lot better than the crap "common wisdom" of EVERYONE NEED 8 HOURS OF SLEEP that is thrown out for days on end.

Also, never take personal anecdote seriously. Anecdotes will only lead to worse science, not better.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#88

Post by greggman » Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 12:36 AM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #14

In general, most people (in the United States, the country I live in) need more sleep than they are getting. One way this is put to the test is by letting people relax in a comfortable reclining chair in a quiet, dark room during daylight working hours. Many people fall asleep in this condition, signaling that they are sleep-deprived, even if they have no regular habit of taking a nap in the daytime. I have lived in…

> One way this is put to the test is by letting people relax in a comfortable reclining chair in a quiet, dark room during daylight working hours. Many people fall asleep in this condition, signaling that they are sleep-deprived, even if they have no regular habit of taking a nap in the daytime.

That is not a valid way to test that people are sleep deprived. Most people will fall asleep with plenty of sleep. Put them in a warm room with little noise and nothing to keep their attention and they'll fall right asleep no matter how much sleep they've previously had.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#89

Post by philip1209 » Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 12:56 AM UTC

greggman wrote: post #88

tokenadult wrote: post #14

In general, most people (in the United States, the country I live in) need more sleep than they are getting. One way this is put to the test is by letting people relax in a comfortable reclining chair in a quiet, dark room during daylight working hours. Many people fall asleep in this condition, signaling that they are sleep-deprived, even if they have no regular habit of taking a nap in the daytime. I have lived in…

> One way this is put to the test is by letting people relax in a comfortable reclining chair in a quiet, dark room during daylight working hours. Many people fall asleep in this condition, signaling that they are sleep-deprived, even if they have no regular habit of taking a nap in the daytime. That is not a valid way to test that people are sleep deprived. Most people will fall asleep with plenty of sleep. Put them…

Indeed - isn't this essentially a nap?

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#90

Post by j-kidd » Tue, Apr 02, 2013, 2:28 AM UTC

wikyd wrote: post #75

fakeer wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That's what I am suggesting. Look, I am not a doctor or neuro something and what I have said above in that statement is based upon my experience, other's and articles I've read. Besides, it's a well known fact that you need to rest your body and mind by sleeping at night at the right time and not just anytime.

This is not a well-known fact. What makes it the "right" time besides your opinion?

According to ancient Chinese wisdom, a day is divided into twelve 2-hours slices, and one is supposed to be:

- falling asleep during the slice from 9pm to 11pm

- remaining sound asleep during the slices from 11pm to 1pm and from 1am to 3am

- waking up during the slice from 3am to 5am