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A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

sam.sutch.net

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Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#81

Post by georgehotz »

cognitiveinline wrote: post #80
georgehotz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is chess solved? (it's not)

I don't think it'll be useful to get into semantics of the word "solved" now, then! Whatever's done to chess, the same is now done to software.

I don't think it is yet. I think the top software engineers well outperform models in normal time controls. AI coding today looks more like how blitz was solved years before classical.

This will shift and eventually programming will look like chess, but the goal of chess is so obvious it doesn't need to be talked about. The goal of programming isn't. The new tools are so much fun to use to amplify your power!

And chess isn't solved at all, it's just superhuman. Programming is even more complex.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#82

Post by johnpdoe1234 »

thunky wrote: post #74
shric wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In all sincerity, what do you mean by wholly unpleasant? “Wholly” was too strong a word now that I think about it. But I’ll give two main things I find unpleasant. One: Normally I like working with other people. There is nothing more satisfying than collaborating on a complex problem with smart and conscientious colleagues. However, the bad experiences are now amplified: - a random colleague gets sent down a wild g…

Your examples indicate that you're working with unproductive people. The truth may just be that you're wasting time and energy engaging with a non-productive coworker's poor outputs.

Which is the case for probably 90% or more of the companies/offices/situations. There are ALWAYS going to be non-productive people, or people that are less productive than you. And guess what, that is OK. We learn to live with them, to work with them, and we make the best out of it.

If a new tool makes you classify as "unworthy to worth with" a really high percentage of humans in a really high percentage of situations for not being up to your standard, so you can be a bit more productive, I think the tool itself might be at fault.

AI has made me more productive, yes. I can also see myself start loathing the job I used to love, and hating the people interactions that I used to like. I would trade my extra productivity anytime.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#83

Post by [deleted] »

MobiusHorizons wrote: post #67
mvkel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. It's simply another layer of abstraction. You don't code in binary, or assembly, or C, or vanilla JavaScript anymore. Eventually "coding" will simply be prompting skill with the wisdom of architectural decisions. That's also one way to describe what it's like to code with React et al these days, anyway. Component/hook selection skill with the wisdom of architectural decisions.

People code in assembly and c and vanilla JavaScript all the time. You may not, but none of those are even that niche of skills. I’ve even decoded machine code from binary (well hexadecimal, but a raw memory dump) by hand a few times when I didn’t have a disassembler handy. Layers of abstraction don’t prevent the need to understand the layer below, they just reduce the number of times it is necessary, which may allow…

[deleted]

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#84

Post by thunky »

johnpdoe1234 wrote: post #82
thunky wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your examples indicate that you're working with unproductive people. The truth may just be that you're wasting time and energy engaging with a non-productive coworker's poor outputs.

Which is the case for probably 90% or more of the companies/offices/situations. There are ALWAYS going to be non-productive people, or people that are less productive than you. And guess what, that is OK. We learn to live with them, to work with them, and we make the best out of it. If a new tool makes you classify as "unworthy to worth with" a really high percentage of humans in a really high percentage of situation…

> I think the tool itself might be at fault.

I don't think so. I don't think it's about being "unworthy to work with" (your quote not mine).

I think the uncomfortable truth is that AI is making it harder for all of us to prove that we're productive.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#85

Post by ehnto »

dns_snek wrote: post #65
ehnto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Skip the vibe coding, just let AI be a helper. This I think will explain the differences in experience in industry. As pressures increase, control and power moves away from developers who have historically had a pretty strong position to dictate how they work. Not everyone is going to be able to use AI as just a tool. The reality I have seen is that AI has sped the time-to-pr up for those who don't care what they s…

I'm with you up to the point where you compare AI to CNC, because AI is the polar opposite of a CNC machine. People wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with it if that were the case.

The analogy is about business impact, I understand CNC and LLMs quite well and realise they are not the same technology.

At some point LLMs will be used like CNC machines. Prompt in, output shipped to the customer after minimum wage QC oops a sticker on it.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#86

Post by ehnto »

palmotea wrote: post #60
ehnto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Skip the vibe coding, just let AI be a helper. This I think will explain the differences in experience in industry. As pressures increase, control and power moves away from developers who have historically had a pretty strong position to dictate how they work. Not everyone is going to be able to use AI as just a tool. The reality I have seen is that AI has sped the time-to-pr up for those who don't care what they s…

> Not everyone is going to be able to use AI as just a tool. The reality I have seen is that AI has sped the time-to-pr up for those who don't care what they ship, so that gets baked into estimates and expectations. > Eventually those working carefully with AI will be like the carpenter still using hand tools while the shop is operating CNC machines. The business can't afford the craftsmanship, no matter how right th…

Please see my other sibling comment reply, the analogy is about how LLMs will be used rather than what they are.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#87

Post by cognitiveinline »

georgehotz wrote: post #81
cognitiveinline wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it'll be useful to get into semantics of the word "solved" now, then! Whatever's done to chess, the same is now done to software.

I don't think it is yet. I think the top software engineers well outperform models in normal time controls. AI coding today looks more like how blitz was solved years before classical. This will shift and eventually programming will look like chess, but the goal of chess is so obvious it doesn't need to be talked about. The goal of programming isn't. The new tools are so much fun to use to amplify your power! And che…

You're asking such a small concession: for one in a thousand engineers. My argument would be happy to grant it, and still be true.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#88

Post by Ferret7446 »

stiglitz wrote: post #39
agentultra wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are cabinet makers who still make pieces by hand with hand tools. They charge whatever they want and do well. Not everything is Ikea.

Kudos to the lucky few artisans that the modern economy will support, but becoming a stocker at Ikea will probably be more lucrative than picking up a saw and plane.

The demand sets the market. There simply isn't enough demand at that price.

Even though the concept of doing what you love has only really existed for a few decades, a lot of people take it for granted. That's just how fast humans get used to things, and AI is no different. It takes a decade or two for a new generation to grow up with the new normal, and then it's just waiting a few generations for the old farts to die off.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#89

Post by NateEag »

simondotau wrote: post #71
NateEag wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I couldn’t have ever “stack overflowed” my way to diving into a project in a brand new language. It's a very tiny project, but I dived straight into a new project in a new language completely by hand this month, precisely because I'm miserable and exhausted from my job requiring me to drive a bullshit machine instead of solving problems by thinking. Getting a few minutes in the evening to actually program, and…

I wish I had that kind of effortless motivation. Learning any language involves internalising a massive pile of arbitrary syntax / core library knowledge. I find it flow-destroying and demotivating to be continually hampered by having to look up silly little things like how to get the length of a string, or how to work with dates. Being able to use AI to instantly turn a line of pseudo-code into a line of real code i…

> I wish I had that kind of effortless motivation.

It is definitely not effortless - it's a battle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_Art_(book)

Over the decades, it's become one I love, and I can see how the struggle has helped me become a better musician, writer, programmer, and person.

Being compelled to use genAI by my employers has largely removed that struggle from my day-to-day, and I hate it passionately.

The replacement of careful thought and fighting to create something compact, elegant, and robust with reading thousands of lines of mediocre generated code, slogging through page after page of uninspired just-good-enough dreck in order to catch the LLM's inevitable moments of absolute failure is mind-deadening and tedious.

I am figuring out what other careers I can swap to if this becomes the new normal.

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