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A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

sam.sutch.net

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Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#62
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all sincerity, what do you mean by wholly unpleasant? 25 years in my case, by the way, and I have found this to be the most liberating and creativity-boosting period of my career. And it’s not even close. I’ve written code in more languages in the past few years than in any other period. I’m finishing more projects than ever before. I’m learning faster than ever before. I’m enjoying programming more than ever befo…

> In all sincerity, what do you mean by wholly unpleasant? “Wholly” was too strong a word now that I think about it. But I’ll give two main things I find unpleasant. One: Normally I like working with other people. There is nothing more satisfying than collaborating on a complex problem with smart and conscientious colleagues. However, the bad experiences are now amplified: - a random colleague gets sent down a wild g…

That is understandable. It’s bad enough dealing with vibe slop that you personally asked for, I can barely imagine how bad it would be having to disentangle vibe slop when you weren’t even the one writing the prompts.

I strictly avoid allowing AI to change the level of abstraction I program in. Defining and orchestrating the architecture of an application is the most fun part anyway — quite apart from being the most important when others are touching your code, whether meat bags or LLMs.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#63
post #9

30 years in the industry for me. It’s been a wild last few years watching this transformation. Like the OP I find it wholly unpleasant and I also can’t deny the productivity boost. I’m very glad I’m nearly ready for retirement and I look forward to watching this “progress” from a comfortable distance.

I've compared to cooking a meal yourself.

Vs ordering delivery.

Cooking for you and your friends is satisfying as a craft and labor of love, as well as being experience. There is enjoyment to be gained from the process.

Compared to delivery, You may get the food quicker/easier. But for most people who cook it was never about that. There are certain people that enjoy generating as much food as possible. Some might call that gluttony or greed, over-indulgence, or in it for the wrong reasons. Perhaps these two groups of people have fundamentally different motivations. Try telling a chef that he should stop cooking and just order the food as delivery.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#64

Why do some software engineers love AI and some hate it? I've got senior engineers (20+ yoe) who have never been having more fun and then some who feel like OP here. Why is it so decisive? There's no other tool (not even emacs) that's caused this sort of division.

There are a lot of negative Nancy types right now. They're just really loud and whiny. They're mourning the death of a world where they're "special" and powerful very specific ways. I feel them and have some empathy, and even some sympathy. I've been through a similar loss of status and a curtailment of the future I thought I could expect. But I picked myself up and kept going and adapted, so my sympathy runs out after listening to it for awhile.

That's not to say that there aren't problems in this world and that some gnashing of teeth isn't warranted - there really are issues, even with AI, but the malcontents have never been louder in my life. Outside of tech in the rest of society, many people haven't realized that the world has basically broken since 2016 and a lot of people are finally mourning the revolution in politics that we've lived through too. It really hasn't hit how tumultuous the last decade has been for most people yet.

I was "fortunate" in that I went through a life altering tragedy about that time so I got a little bit of perspective about how replaceable I was a bit before all these guys did. I realized how short life was, and how messed up things can get and how "the system" doesn't give a rats ass about you if you can't produce. I learned that viscerally, so perhaps to my detriment, I'm like the guy in the meme, "first time?" But these doomers and ai-haters and malcontents are mourning I think. In order to feel important and special again they rail against their replacement. I get it, I am still mourning the death of my old career. Some of these guys are realizing that they can be outdone by a machine for the first time in their lives. White collar worker types who thought "knowledge work" was safe and uniquely human are mourning at their own new found mediocrity. They say they can "do it better!" and maybe they can, but that doesn't matter - they're realizing that "doing it better" is not what is required. The people who don't want to use the new tools will be like people opposing the steam engine. They may not remember that John Henry died trying to beat the steam engine - I think that's the part they may have forgotten.

No, the loud irritation and frustration is a blend of a lot of things in my mind. But largely, what I see is a bunch of people who thought they were special and smart and unreplaceable are realizing that they're just as replaceable as the rest of people. They're mourning. Marxists call this alienation if I remember my Marx.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#65
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all sincerity, what do you mean by wholly unpleasant? 25 years in my case, by the way, and I have found this to be the most liberating and creativity-boosting period of my career. And it’s not even close. I’ve written code in more languages in the past few years than in any other period. I’m finishing more projects than ever before. I’m learning faster than ever before. I’m enjoying programming more than ever befo…

> Skip the vibe coding, just let AI be a helper. This I think will explain the differences in experience in industry. As pressures increase, control and power moves away from developers who have historically had a pretty strong position to dictate how they work. Not everyone is going to be able to use AI as just a tool. The reality I have seen is that AI has sped the time-to-pr up for those who don't care what they s…

I'm with you up to the point where you compare AI to CNC, because AI is the polar opposite of a CNC machine. People wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with it if that were the case.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI as helper is basically a better google search, which is not much different than what we did before AI (copy paste from stack overflow)

That’s not been my experience. Not even remotely like that. I was never much of a stack overflow block copier. AI lets me do rapid refactoring without messy search and replace. AI lets me rip through logical pinch points without pulling out a whiteboard. And I couldn’t have ever “stack overflowed” my way to diving into a project in a brand new language.

> And I couldn’t have ever “stack overflowed” my way to diving into a project in a brand new language.

It's a very tiny project, but I dived straight into a new project in a new language completely by hand this month, precisely because I'm miserable and exhausted from my job requiring me to drive a bullshit machine instead of solving problems by thinking.

Getting a few minutes in the evening to actually program, and learn new things as I do it, has been crucial to maintaining any sanity at all in this brave new world of unending heaps of slop.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#67
post #17

After we get through this slop phase, I think software engineering won’t be about code at all, if it even exists as a profession. Feels like the beginning of the end for the craft.

No way. It's simply another layer of abstraction. You don't code in binary, or assembly, or C, or vanilla JavaScript anymore. Eventually "coding" will simply be prompting skill with the wisdom of architectural decisions. That's also one way to describe what it's like to code with React et al these days, anyway. Component/hook selection skill with the wisdom of architectural decisions.

People code in assembly and c and vanilla JavaScript all the time. You may not, but none of those are even that niche of skills. I’ve even decoded machine code from binary (well hexadecimal, but a raw memory dump) by hand a few times when I didn’t have a disassembler handy. Layers of abstraction don’t prevent the need to understand the layer below, they just reduce the number of times it is necessary, which may allow delegating that knowledge to a smaller pool of people.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#68

Why do some software engineers love AI and some hate it? I've got senior engineers (20+ yoe) who have never been having more fun and then some who feel like OP here. Why is it so decisive? There's no other tool (not even emacs) that's caused this sort of division.

1. In some areas AI is extremely proficient, in others it's "two plus two equals three". Your experience with AI will highly vary depending on how knowledgeable it is about the particular problem you're facing. It's also a skill on itself how to talk to AI, just like "googling" used to be.

2. AI allows people to 10x things. If your organization has a healthy engineering culture then I assume people don't send for review shit like "change constant into hardcoded value" and AI-generated PRs are checked to fit the broader design, but if your organization was already full of idiots, then they produce 10x the output. Good luck trying to survive that.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#69
post #43

Why do some software engineers love AI and some hate it? I've got senior engineers (20+ yoe) who have never been having more fun and then some who feel like OP here. Why is it so decisive? There's no other tool (not even emacs) that's caused this sort of division.

Some people never really liked writing code. They liked the result and the paycheck much more. Those folks are having the time of their lives now. Well, until the fall happens and software development is assmebly-lined.

I have always liked coding (started in the 80s). But I got bored having to deal with trivialities (spending life on fixing commas) and increasing accidental complexity (having to memorize tons of APIs). Now LLMs deal with that crap and I can apply stuff I read in research papers and such, with much lower threshold.
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