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A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

sam.sutch.net

71–80 of 89 posts

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#71
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not been my experience. Not even remotely like that. I was never much of a stack overflow block copier. AI lets me do rapid refactoring without messy search and replace. AI lets me rip through logical pinch points without pulling out a whiteboard. And I couldn’t have ever “stack overflowed” my way to diving into a project in a brand new language.

> And I couldn’t have ever “stack overflowed” my way to diving into a project in a brand new language. It's a very tiny project, but I dived straight into a new project in a new language completely by hand this month, precisely because I'm miserable and exhausted from my job requiring me to drive a bullshit machine instead of solving problems by thinking. Getting a few minutes in the evening to actually program, and…

I wish I had that kind of effortless motivation.

Learning any language involves internalising a massive pile of arbitrary syntax / core library knowledge. I find it flow-destroying and demotivating to be continually hampered by having to look up silly little things like how to get the length of a string, or how to work with dates. Being able to use AI to instantly turn a line of pseudo-code into a line of real code is not just great for productivity, it teaches me the language faster than any way I've experienced before.

My pre-AI coding style has always been to write terse pseudo-code first, just so I can map out core logic, what I'm iterating over, and what the meat of the routine will do. I formatted this pseudo-code as comments, and then treat them like headers, where I write the real code underneath. AI tab completion has made this way of coding insanely more productive, and gives me an incentive to write better pseudo.

(I also don't mind getting AI to write a whole page at a time, especially when it's a slab of uncreative boilerplate or glue code. AI routinely does a perfect job of smashing that out. But I will always pick through it line by line, renaming and rewriting in my personal style.)

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#72
post #69
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people never really liked writing code. They liked the result and the paycheck much more. Those folks are having the time of their lives now. Well, until the fall happens and software development is assmebly-lined.

I have always liked coding (started in the 80s). But I got bored having to deal with trivialities (spending life on fixing commas) and increasing accidental complexity (having to memorize tons of APIs). Now LLMs deal with that crap and I can apply stuff I read in research papers and such, with much lower threshold.

> But I got bored having to deal with trivialities

For me, at least (with probably half the experience) the trivialities are important for making me understand the design, so I can improve it.

If there's a lot of boilerplate, then we should condense that to something else.

Unfortunately, with the way these models are currently trained, they default to solving the same problem in multiple ways depending on the position of Jupiter and the Moon (apparently).

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#73

>I’d love to find a corner of the world where this hasn’t happened yet [...] Start one? There's definitely a market for software that doesn't give off the corporate, mass-produced, one-size-fits-all energy. 37signals famously made quite a business out of it.

Germany is still there.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#74
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all sincerity, what do you mean by wholly unpleasant? 25 years in my case, by the way, and I have found this to be the most liberating and creativity-boosting period of my career. And it’s not even close. I’ve written code in more languages in the past few years than in any other period. I’m finishing more projects than ever before. I’m learning faster than ever before. I’m enjoying programming more than ever befo…

> In all sincerity, what do you mean by wholly unpleasant? “Wholly” was too strong a word now that I think about it. But I’ll give two main things I find unpleasant. One: Normally I like working with other people. There is nothing more satisfying than collaborating on a complex problem with smart and conscientious colleagues. However, the bad experiences are now amplified: - a random colleague gets sent down a wild g…

Your examples indicate that you're working with unproductive people.

The truth may just be that you're wasting time and energy engaging with a non-productive coworker's poor outputs.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are cabinet makers who still make pieces by hand with hand tools. They charge whatever they want and do well. Not everything is Ikea.

Kudos to the lucky few artisans that the modern economy will support, but becoming a stocker at Ikea will probably be more lucrative than picking up a saw and plane.

That will depend on your life goals.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#76

How much of modern software was slop before AI? Is this really something new? I argue it's been happening in many companies since at least 2010. Made with good old fashioned humans and some help from ZIRP. Remember that time I worked at Twitter? SQLite is the most popular database in the world. It's maintained by 3 people. There's hope. AI is a great tool that's here to help you if you want, but at the end of the day…

Software is solved. Significant amount of code written (>90% of engineers) wrote slop. And it would get merged. Overall - both floor and ceiling of quality of software has definitely been raised. Just that it's had a labor scare and impact. Before it needed you to jailbreak a console. Today point frontier at a console, and it could also figure it out. The console folks also can do that before release and ensure it's…

lol saying software is solved is like saying math is solved. It's not.

And it's unclear which direction this will tip things for jailbreaks, it's always been a two-player game. It will still be people like me doing the jailbreaks, they will just have harder problems to solve and better tools to help solve them.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#77
post #51

How much of modern software was slop before AI? Is this really something new? I argue it's been happening in many companies since at least 2010. Made with good old fashioned humans and some help from ZIRP. Remember that time I worked at Twitter? SQLite is the most popular database in the world. It's maintained by 3 people. There's hope. AI is a great tool that's here to help you if you want, but at the end of the day…

With all due respect, this is a bit disingenuous coming from you. GitHub's exponential growth in number of commits and PRs answers your question. Before AI, if you wanted to contribute to OSS, you had to have _some_ idea of what the code did. At least enough of an idea to compile it so that you could test your changes. That was the bar. Sure, lots of low quality PRs existed, but that gate kept the influx somewhat man…

The AI PRs are a bit annoying, but I've been learning new ways to see the signal and it's not that bad. Heisenberg sized PRs from new contributors never should have been merged even pre AI. AI is like a new version of the software engineering game came out and the meta shifted, but the new game is pretty cool!

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software is solved. Significant amount of code written (>90% of engineers) wrote slop. And it would get merged. Overall - both floor and ceiling of quality of software has definitely been raised. Just that it's had a labor scare and impact. Before it needed you to jailbreak a console. Today point frontier at a console, and it could also figure it out. The console folks also can do that before release and ensure it's…

lol saying software is solved is like saying math is solved. It's not. And it's unclear which direction this will tip things for jailbreaks, it's always been a two-player game. It will still be people like me doing the jailbreaks, they will just have harder problems to solve and better tools to help solve them.

Ok, I'll rephrase to be more specific: Software is magnitude more solved now than it was 7 months ago.

And we're seeing the early signs of same in Math as well.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol saying software is solved is like saying math is solved. It's not. And it's unclear which direction this will tip things for jailbreaks, it's always been a two-player game. It will still be people like me doing the jailbreaks, they will just have harder problems to solve and better tools to help solve them.

Ok, I'll rephrase to be more specific: Software is magnitude more solved now than it was 7 months ago. And we're seeing the early signs of same in Math as well.

Is chess solved? (it's not)

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I'll rephrase to be more specific: Software is magnitude more solved now than it was 7 months ago. And we're seeing the early signs of same in Math as well.

Is chess solved? (it's not)

I don't think it'll be useful to get into semantics of the word "solved" now, then!

Whatever's done to chess, the same is now done to software.

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