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How wolves became dogs

economist.com

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Re: How wolves became dogs

#81

Post by IAmBroom »

inahga wrote: post #57
MichaelRo wrote: post #18

>> “The only, absolute and best friend a man has, in this selfish world, the only one that will not betray or deny him, is his dog.” Well, this is far from absolute, isn't it? :) There's a fair number of vicious attacks of a dog on his owner. Oftentimes pitbulls (are they even dogs or rather "creatures"?!), but other breeds do it too. So ... nothing is absolute :P

Mostly, if not entirely due to intentionally poor breeding practices. Who betrayed who?

Mostly, if not entirely, due to poor raising.

I've gotten "BEWARE OF DOG!" pitbulls and rottweilers to befriend me simply by speaking kindly to them, and then over a period of days raising that to handsniffs, then petting.

Misanthropic dogs are taught that behavior, which contradicts 10,000+ years of training. They don't enjoy being assholes.

This is not to say dogs aren't naturally barky and suspicious of strangers; that is also part of their millenia of training. Lots of nice people are also suspicious of strangers. But aggressively attacking people is basically psychotic behavior for a social animal that considers humans part of its society.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#82

Post by jjtheblunt »

IAmBroom wrote: post #80
jjtheblunt wrote: post #22

I watch the genetic studies and it seems always presumed, in these articles, that dogs derive from wolves, not that dogs derive from siblings of wolves that derive from a common proto-canine ancestor. The wikipedia entry considers the issue, presents data that are curious with respect ot the data in the Economist article, saying domestication is presumed from wolves roughly 14,000 years or so ago. https://en.wikipedi…

We have fossil records of wolves that do not seem much different from modern grey wolves. We do not have fossil records of ancestors to the grey wolves that share much of their DNA coexisting with the grey wolves. Occam's Razor says that the posited ancestor of Canus domesticus that shared grey wolf DNA was... the grey wolf.

I believe the linked articles number 10 and 11 in the wikipedia article have a counterexample to what you just wrote.

they do also emphasize that the "northern dogs" (huskies, malamute, akita?) are very close to wolves in shared ancestry.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#83

Post by pokstad »

conductr wrote: post #68
pokstad wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched a documentary on dogs that was cheerful until the last 5% when they mentioned modern day dog owners. The film speculated that dogs might be a considered like a parasite that infiltrates human families and causes them to stop breeding humans and instead only have dogs and cats. So if that’s the case, the evolution ends for us :)

I've heard this before. I think better term than parasite is an addictive drug since we created these types of pet dogs and indulge on them. I feel strongly the trend of dog ownership overtaking people having children, while real, is more so a result of modern economic realities regarding cost of housing and raising a child.

Cost is definitely a factor, but I think the ease and convenience of a dog over the stress of children also plays a big role. Dogs are obedient and mature in less than 2 years.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#84

Post by WalterBright »

sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

> how have wolves shaped humans?

The bonds between humans and wolves go both ways. Humans love their dogs.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#85

Post by dboreham »

szanni wrote: post #12

I am rather surprised the article does not mention the shared hunting technique of pursuing prey until exhaustion as a possible link. Many hunter gather tribes apparently employed this technique and it can still be found today in Africa with the San people. Sharing food or stealing wolf puppies were probably part of the domestication but was this because humans possibly hunted alongside wolves? Humans possibly being…

Probably a bit backwards. There is a filter on : they have to either be able to keep up with humans, or be small enough to be carried by a human. Hence: dogs, cats, rats, bunnies, etc.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#86

Post by WalterBright »

conductr wrote: post #66
TacticalCoder wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so weird that cats are still so feline, basically miniature tigers/lions but that dogs went so much off the rails compared to majestic wolves. Sure, some dogs are wolves-like but many just lot the plot: chihuahuas, daschhunds (my mom always had those: friendly but... not wolves-like), pugs, sharpeis, etc. So many are just... Not badass? A wolf is badass. Cats are totally badass: they're natural born killers, hun…

Dogs get bred for specific personality traits and to develop physical traits. My border collie was a maniac that just wanted to work all day every day. That herding part of his personality was extremely prevalent. Even if I tossed a treat on the ground, it never would occur to him to use his nose, he'd frantically look all around. Even if it was right under his nose if he didn't see it then it's as if it didn't exist…

> Dogs get bred for specific personality traits and to develop physical traits.

If I was a doggie researcher, I'd be breeding them for general intelligence and see how far that can go.

For example, some dogs have vocabularies of over 100 words.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#87

Post by dboreham »

sjw987 wrote: post #33
pxc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Who does that?

In the UK, it's incredibly common for dog owners to do this. When confronted about leaving the bagged dog shit somewhere they always say they're going to pick it up on the way back, yet the next day it's still there. Modern British dog owners are incredibly irresponsible surrounding how they look after their pets and how they handle the pets mess. Covid made it measurably worse.

One of the few benefits of widespread gun ownership in the USA: overt antisocial behavior is less common.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#88

Post by dboreham »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #62
conductr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a long enough timeline it’s possible that cat-people and dog-people evolve separately into different species

It's so weird that cats are still so feline, basically miniature tigers/lions but that dogs went so much off the rails compared to majestic wolves. Sure, some dogs are wolves-like but many just lot the plot: chihuahuas, daschhunds (my mom always had those: friendly but... not wolves-like), pugs, sharpeis, etc. So many are just... Not badass? A wolf is badass. Cats are totally badass: they're natural born killers, hun…

Full sized dogs can kill and eat a human. Full sized sand cat (or whatever they began as) can't eat a human. It's another domestication filter: "can't be able to easily eat a human".

Years ago I was walking along the beach on a pacific island (probably Rarotonga). I'd noticed dogs running about (individually, not in a pack) and remarked how docile they seemed. Mentioned this to a local I ran into to which he responded "any that wasn't docile went in the Umu".

Re: How wolves became dogs

#89

Post by snerbles »

akkad33 wrote: post #74
z3t4 wrote: post #11

It's common in fur farms that they breed the animals that are most friendly to humans, and in only a few generations those animals behave like very friendly pets, and killing them becomes more difficult.

Why do they kill animals for fur? Could they not shave them? (I realise my question sounds dumb)

The pelt is what's harvested - the fur is not removed from the skin.

In some cases the animal's hair can be cut without harm, like how sheep are shorn for wool.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#90

Post by overfeed »

runjake wrote: post #52
IAmBroom wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Counterpoint: since the canines can't keep up with the humans, are they only used to start the hunt? How do they know where the humans are near the end? Until the dog is fully domesticated (OK, I'll go home and await his return. He'll bring me meat!), I don't know how they could cooperate on a many-hour hunt like this. I used to wonder the same about falconry until I met a hawkmaster. The animals don't t…

> Counterpoint: since the canines can't keep up with the humans, are they only used to start the hunt? Can you elaborate here? This is a weird fascination of mine (man+canine). I walk long distances with dogs, here's what I've found and ruminated: 1. If I chase or follow a dog, I can chase them to exhaustion. 2. If I'm walking several miles with a dog, they tend to trot ahead of me and stop and pant and wait for me.…

> Can you elaborate here?

Dogs (and the prey) can do burst sprints, but will easily overheat, and will need to stop periodically to cool down. Humans are furless and sweating is sufficient to regulate our internal temperature, so we can keep jogging for hours on end. Additionally, dogs are great at sniffing out hidden prey at the beginning of a hunt, and once found, humans are excellent trackers.

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