How wolves became dogs • Hacker News Board

Re: How wolves became dogs

#21

Post by HPsquared » Fri, Jan 09, 2026, 2:13 PM UTC

sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

This is where evolutionary theory can be viewed through the lens of coevolution or group selection (a group defined as containing both a selection of humans, and also animals and plants in varying degrees of domestication, as a whole system). This is in contrast to kin selection, which only accounts for genetic relatedness.

I remember in one of Jiang Xueqin's videos, he made the interesting argument that "grain domesticated humans" at least as much, if not more, than "humans domesticated grain".

Re: How wolves became dogs

#22

Post by jjtheblunt » Fri, Jan 09, 2026, 2:17 PM UTC

I watch the genetic studies and it seems always presumed, in these articles, that dogs derive from wolves, not that dogs derive from siblings of wolves that derive from a common proto-canine ancestor.

The wikipedia entry considers the issue, presents data that are curious with respect ot the data in the Economist article, saying domestication is presumed from wolves roughly 14,000 years or so ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog#Taxonomy

The Economist article hints at the curiosity, in mentioning pre-Colombian dogs in the Americas were distinct some 23,000 years ago, but then returns to the standard presumptions.

An article in Nature also considers the ancestry presumptions

https://www.nature.com/articles/505589e

Re: How wolves became dogs

#23

Post by conductr » Fri, Jan 09, 2026, 2:27 PM UTC

sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

On a long enough timeline it’s possible that cat-people and dog-people evolve separately into different species

Re: How wolves became dogs

#24

Post by jebarker » Fri, Jan 09, 2026, 2:36 PM UTC

Highly recommend the book "How to tame a fox" about the Russian fur farm fox domestication experiment

Re: How wolves became dogs

#25

Post by thebruce87m » Fri, Jan 09, 2026, 2:36 PM UTC

conductr wrote: post #23

sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

On a long enough timeline it’s possible that cat-people and dog-people evolve separately into different species

I think some dog people already are a different species - hanging bags of dog shit on trees would never occur to me for example. I’d hate to see what their Christmas trees look like.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#26

Post by the_af » Fri, Jan 09, 2026, 2:39 PM UTC

tomkaos wrote: post #13

sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

I read somewhere that he could have change human sleep. Human can have a deeper sleep knowing a guard will alert of danger.

Thankfully we have those other animals, "human puppies", to counteract this :P

Re: How wolves became dogs

#27

Post by pxc » Fri, Jan 09, 2026, 2:40 PM UTC

thebruce87m wrote: post #25

conductr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a long enough timeline it’s possible that cat-people and dog-people evolve separately into different species

I think some dog people already are a different species - hanging bags of dog shit on trees would never occur to me for example. I’d hate to see what their Christmas trees look like.

Huh? Who does that?

Re: How wolves became dogs

#28

Post by sph » Fri, Jan 09, 2026, 2:40 PM UTC

conductr wrote: post #23

sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

On a long enough timeline it’s possible that cat-people and dog-people evolve separately into different species

Only if cat-people and dog-people don't intermingle.

But given how hostile many cat-people are (see sibling comment), compared to dog-people which tend to also enjoy the company of cats, I can imagine a timeline where this misanthropist branch of humans splits off, goes to live in trees and hisses at anybody that comes nearby.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#29

Post by rebolek » Fri, Jan 09, 2026, 2:47 PM UTC

Luc wrote: post #5

azornathogron wrote: post #4

HN title-destroying rules strike again. It's "How Wolves Became Dogs"

This rule is one of the worst ones, often resulting in nonsense titles or grammatical problems. Another one on the homepage right now: "Samba Was Written". Ok, great.

Technically it's correct.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#30

Post by softwaredoug » Fri, Jan 09, 2026, 2:51 PM UTC

One clue is in mythology.

Across many cultures, dogs exist in a transitory space between life and death (ie Cerebus). Hinting at dogs being "transitory" from here (camp) and out there (the wilderness). Going between, getting scraps, staying for a while, leaving. You can imagine a process unfolding over Millenia of gradual domestication this way. You see it in Ancient North Eurasians myth across different cultures. Ancient North Eurasians are genetic precursors Eurasian, Western Europe, and American lineages where dog domestication originated, and arguably where many cultures have the deeper associations with dogs.