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How wolves became dogs

economist.com

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Re: How wolves became dogs

#31

Post by ddawson »

conductr wrote: post #23
sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

On a long enough timeline it’s possible that cat-people and dog-people evolve separately into different species

Culture has been affected by Toxoplasmosis which humans are primarily exposed to through cats so this makes sense.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#32

Post by dsign »

sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

Slightly tangential, but I think that dogs have allowed for some bad things to happen to us. Like, they are available physically, so if you don’t want to go insane in this society of ours where you are allowed to have physical contact with at most one person (your one and only partner), you can get a dog or five, or simply pet your friend’s dog or even a neighbor’s. Many post-agricultural revolution civilizations predicated on small family cells and strict property and succession rules would have been impossible without a dog to pet.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#33

Post by sjw987 »

pxc wrote: post #27
thebruce87m wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some dog people already are a different species - hanging bags of dog shit on trees would never occur to me for example. I’d hate to see what their Christmas trees look like.

Huh? Who does that?

In the UK, it's incredibly common for dog owners to do this. When confronted about leaving the bagged dog shit somewhere they always say they're going to pick it up on the way back, yet the next day it's still there.

Modern British dog owners are incredibly irresponsible surrounding how they look after their pets and how they handle the pets mess. Covid made it measurably worse.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#34

Post by sph »

dsign wrote: post #32
sph wrote: post #9

It's clear that human companionship has shaped wolves into dogs. A weird, perhaps silly question I've had for a while is: how have wolves shaped humans? Has human society in any way been affected by the structure of wolf packs? Did hairless monkeys form stronger tribes because of it? I don't believe for a second that this deep interspecies friendship has been one-sided and hasn't brought psychological if not physical…

Slightly tangential, but I think that dogs have allowed for some bad things to happen to us. Like, they are available physically, so if you don’t want to go insane in this society of ours where you are allowed to have physical contact with at most one person (your one and only partner), you can get a dog or five, or simply pet your friend’s dog or even a neighbor’s. Many post-agricultural revolution civilizations pre…

Are nuclear families a post-agricultural phenomenon? AFAIK, it's a much recent societal change driven by the industrial revolution (i.e. 300 years ago vs ~15,000 years of agriculture)

Re: How wolves became dogs

#35

Post by FeteCommuniste »

sph wrote: post #28
conductr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a long enough timeline it’s possible that cat-people and dog-people evolve separately into different species

Only if cat-people and dog-people don't intermingle. But given how hostile many cat-people are (see sibling comment), compared to dog-people which tend to also enjoy the company of cats, I can imagine a timeline where this misanthropist branch of humans splits off, goes to live in trees and hisses at anybody that comes nearby.

Hmm, I've known a good number of dog people who dislike cats. Never read any stats on the ratio of cat-lover+dog-hater to dog-lover+cat-hater groups, though.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#36

Post by FeteCommuniste »

sjw987 wrote: post #33
pxc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Who does that?

In the UK, it's incredibly common for dog owners to do this. When confronted about leaving the bagged dog shit somewhere they always say they're going to pick it up on the way back, yet the next day it's still there. Modern British dog owners are incredibly irresponsible surrounding how they look after their pets and how they handle the pets mess. Covid made it measurably worse.

> In the UK, it's incredibly common for dog owners to do this.

That's wild. I've never once seen this in the US.

Obviously there are people who just don't clean up after their dogs in the first place, but to clean it up and then hang the bagged crap on a tree? Haha.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#37

Post by steve1977 »

sph wrote: post #28
conductr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a long enough timeline it’s possible that cat-people and dog-people evolve separately into different species

Only if cat-people and dog-people don't intermingle. But given how hostile many cat-people are (see sibling comment), compared to dog-people which tend to also enjoy the company of cats, I can imagine a timeline where this misanthropist branch of humans splits off, goes to live in trees and hisses at anybody that comes nearby.

> goes to live in trees

Mainly because they lost the ability to climb down.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#38

Post by feintruled »

Interesting article, though is there really much new there? Also it discounts the alternative hypothesis of some bright spark acquiring wolf pups and doing it purposefully because that would take 'weeks'. Weeks, you say?

Surely some enterprising hunter-gatherer had sufficient time on their hands. I can't help but think strutting around with a feared predator at your beck and call would have been the ultimate status symbol, and once you saw it would have to be the must have accessory for the self-respecting hunter. Aficionados would no doubt breed their stock amongst themselves to save the hassle of having to abduct more wolf cubs, which would naturally tend to the more suited specimens (friendliness being one trait as you don't want them eating the kids). Once it was realised what an incredible force multiplier they are in hunting and their utility in defence, any time investment would pay for itself many times over.

I find this no less as unlikely as thinking humans would let wolves help themselves to their excess food. Fascinating subject all round, no matter the reason. I hope they can figure out more.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#39

Post by gradschool »

MichaelRo wrote: post #18

>> “The only, absolute and best friend a man has, in this selfish world, the only one that will not betray or deny him, is his dog.” Well, this is far from absolute, isn't it? :) There's a fair number of vicious attacks of a dog on his owner. Oftentimes pitbulls (are they even dogs or rather "creatures"?!), but other breeds do it too. So ... nothing is absolute :P

For another example of betrayal, one of the cronies in Katherine the Great's court always gave a dog to his girlfriends whenever he started a new relationship. Then if the dog ever greeted some other guy familiarly, he inferred he was falling out of favor. He probably learned that trick when someone did it to him, because he would let the other guy know how he was rumbled before graciously bowing out.

Re: How wolves became dogs

#40

Post by IAmBroom »

szanni wrote: post #12

I am rather surprised the article does not mention the shared hunting technique of pursuing prey until exhaustion as a possible link. Many hunter gather tribes apparently employed this technique and it can still be found today in Africa with the San people. Sharing food or stealing wolf puppies were probably part of the domestication but was this because humans possibly hunted alongside wolves? Humans possibly being…

Interesting. Counterpoint: since the canines can't keep up with the humans, are they only used to start the hunt? How do they know where the humans are near the end?

Until the dog is fully domesticated (OK, I'll go home and await his return. He'll bring me meat!), I don't know how they could cooperate on a many-hour hunt like this.

I used to wonder the same about falconry until I met a hawkmaster. The animals don't take prey far away where they'd be hard to find; they hover or perch near the humans in open fields, where they are trivial to find.

I also wondered why they don't just eat the prey. It's because that involves lots of effort; they know a human will shortly arrive with tasty food that isn't wrapped in tough fur. Basically, they trade a package of hamburger for a Big Mac.

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