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Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

reuters.com

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Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#81

Post by antimemetics »

nine_zeros wrote: post #62
steelframe wrote: post #39

I've dabbled in management a few times in my career. This meant attending manager-only meetings and trainings. I'll never forget one time when a manager in a focus group said something along the lines of, "The tech sector is going through a rough patch, so we can turn the screws on our employees and they'll have to take it because they will have a hard time trying to find a job somewhere else." This is at a company w…

> After I picked my jaw up off the floor I realized I simply lacked the scruples I'd need to be "one of them." This is the reason why I always tell young engineers to treat companies with utmost business-only mentality. It's not that all managers are bad. It's that the company rewards psychopathic behaviors - that aren't easily apparent to humble people. Companies are merely out there squeezing and exploring employee…

Corporations are a form of “slow” AI - this is literally a war against the machines

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#82

Post by simondotau »

hanniabu wrote: post #13
selcuka wrote: post #11

> To cater for emergencies and jobs with irregular hours, the rule still allows employers to contact their workers, who can only refuse to respond where it is reasonable to do so. This clause pretty much invalidates the rest of the rule. Why should an employee need to justify their inability (or unwillingness) to respond? I can understand the "jobs with irregular hours", but otherwise shouldn't it be a best effort th…

And what constitutes an emergency. If nobody's wellbeing is at risk then imo it's not an emergency, but I doubt that how a company will interpret it.

The CEO might argue their wellbeing is at risk if they don't receive the bonus for reaching their quarterly targets.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#83

Post by antimemetics »

Insanity wrote: post #64
warbeforepeace wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for FAANG and have had one page outside of working hours over that last 12 months. I do not respond to emails on weekends or evenings. I do not turn my work laptop on during vacation at all. I leave at home in a safe.

Totally different experience here working for FAANG, at least as it pertains to pages. For emails / slack etc I found it easy to ignore while working as an engineer, but much harder now in a management role. Even entirely disconnecting when going on vacation can be tough. That said it is mostly self imposed. Over the past 2 years it was rarely the expectation to work outside regular hours (but did happen).

> it is mostly self impose

This is the key. Of course companies don’t object to you working extra hours. You shouldn’t do it - it sets a bad precedent for those who you manage.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#84

Post by anon373839 »

cj wrote: post #43
Gustomaximus wrote: post #34

For emails, I generally feel these are a 24hr thing. I turn off email alerts so I can focus on my tasks then check a few times a day only. I used to filter CC emails into their own folder for reading maybe once a day which worked mostly well but occasionally people can't seem to use to/CC as they are supposed to. Calls I always try to pickup or callback asap but my job calls usually means urgent. Chat like Teams I'm…

Isn't what you're describing the difference between exempt and non-exempt employees? In the US, the protections you're describing exist if you make less than ~$60k. Above that amount and you're exempt from being entitled to overtime.

> if you make less than ~$60k. Above that amount and you're exempt from being entitled to overtime.

This is incorrect. Entitlement to overtime pay varies from state to state. In California, for example, there are complex rules but for most employees, the analysis ultimately boils down to whether you spend more than 50% of your working hours performing exempt duties. If you don’t meet this threshold — even if you are highly compensated and have an executive title — you are not exempt and you must be paid overtime. It also does not matter if the company is paying you on a salary or hourly basis.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#85

Post by kergonath »

nomilk wrote: post #29
joshgermon wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you rely on exploiting the fact that your employee does not have the right to ignore your call outside of hours, your business shouldn't exist. What kind of take is this? It says it gives them the right to ignore, not to sue the business if they do call.

Employees benefit from calls out of hours. How? The employer is able to offer better service to customers, and make more money, and the employee can negotiate a higher salary from the more profitable business. Employees who are inflexible cannot offer the same level of service to their employer and its customers; they'll on-average be paid less and measures like this increase production costs, making goods and servic…

> This law reduces the extent to which flexible employees can add (and extract, via hight salary!) value, and the extent to which customers receive timely service.

Not at all. It means that if they want employees to be on call they have to pay for it.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#86

Post by sfpotter »

StressedDev wrote: post #51
sfpotter wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you live in a world of incredible privilege. Not everyone is so lucky.

Nope - A large portion of the world works like this. If you work for a place which demands you work all of the time, you either work for an abusive employer, or you get paid a lot of money to be at their beck and call. If the employer is abusive, find another job. If you are paid a large salary to be a slave to company, consider finding a job with a better work/life balance.

I think you have a poor understanding of what most of the world looks like. Most people on the planet exist in tenuous circumstances which do not allow them to simply go find another job, let alone an employer that isn't abusive, etc. The luxury of being able to worry about these things and take meaningful action to achieve them is truly a recent phenomenon that is not widely distributed.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#87

Post by givemeethekeys »

dabiged wrote: post #27
nomilk wrote: post #22

Another 'good in theory' idea. Trying to run a business in Australia is 'death by a thousand paper cuts'. Far too many rules. Letting individuals interact freely creates good outcomes 90+% of the time. Most of these rules are cost-benefit negative because the administrative burden of adherence exceeds the benefit of the new rule. Politicians and govt departments like them though; they get to put a dot-point on their…

I have to respectfully disagree here. You place far too much stead in "individuals freely interacting" and none in "micromanaging bosses constantly hassling you at ridiculous hours for pissant assignments that can wait until the morning". My experience in working at Australian businesses, especially as an IC, is that there is far too much of the latter, and far to little of the former. This is especially true the you…

While I support his new law, more rules do act as a barrier to entry / competition for new / smaller businesses. Larger companies can more easily adhere to increasingly complex employment rules than smaller ones.

The new law protects people from being bothered by micromanagers during off hours, but reduced market competition keeps people stuck with a shitty boss, and reduces their chances to get a raise.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#88

Post by antimemetics »

nomilk wrote: post #29
joshgermon wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you rely on exploiting the fact that your employee does not have the right to ignore your call outside of hours, your business shouldn't exist. What kind of take is this? It says it gives them the right to ignore, not to sue the business if they do call.

Employees benefit from calls out of hours. How? The employer is able to offer better service to customers, and make more money, and the employee can negotiate a higher salary from the more profitable business. Employees who are inflexible cannot offer the same level of service to their employer and its customers; they'll on-average be paid less and measures like this increase production costs, making goods and servic…

Surely you are joking

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#89

Post by moorow »

nomilk wrote: post #22

Another 'good in theory' idea. Trying to run a business in Australia is 'death by a thousand paper cuts'. Far too many rules. Letting individuals interact freely creates good outcomes 90+% of the time. Most of these rules are cost-benefit negative because the administrative burden of adherence exceeds the benefit of the new rule. Politicians and govt departments like them though; they get to put a dot-point on their…

I own a tech consulting company in Australia. What rules are you talking about? The only change that's come in recently that's affected us is the changes to fixed-term contracts, and that's an entirely fair change to stop employees from getting dicked over by bad employers. Likewise, moving super through one-touch payroll is a great change that literally only affects dodgy employers.

The reason we're a country that digs shit out of the ground in lieu of doing anything else is the same reason why virtually all investment in the country is in real estate: it's not taxed highly enough to encourage people to diversify, and it's a sector that's too big to fail. Why would you invest in your mate's new tech company and potentially lose it all when you can throw it into a property with almost literally zero risk and far better returns?

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#90

Post by xmprt »

Insanity wrote: post #64
warbeforepeace wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for FAANG and have had one page outside of working hours over that last 12 months. I do not respond to emails on weekends or evenings. I do not turn my work laptop on during vacation at all. I leave at home in a safe.

Totally different experience here working for FAANG, at least as it pertains to pages. For emails / slack etc I found it easy to ignore while working as an engineer, but much harder now in a management role. Even entirely disconnecting when going on vacation can be tough. That said it is mostly self imposed. Over the past 2 years it was rarely the expectation to work outside regular hours (but did happen).

The hard part of disconnecting as a manager is feeling like the team is blocked on you when you're not there. If you're a good manager then you enable the team to function without you. It's just tough to get that level of confidence in your management abilities.
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