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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#81
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. All your other points are fine. People are motivated by a mix of external and internal triggers, and you are clearly skewed to the external side. The thing I quoted is however why anyone geared towards the internal side of things will HATE to have to go to the office while you are there. Programming requires delib…

Isn't what you say contradictory? You are saying that devs need to stay "in the flow". But when you are in the flow and suddenly you have something that blocks you because you have a simple question, the best way to stay in the flow is to ask the question and get the answer immediately. If I have to quit my flow, go on slack, ask on slack, wait 10 minutes, then re-explain because the other person did not get it, then…

If one requires interrupting 6 other people to maintain flow, it's probably a good idea to start phrasing (hyperbole intentional) it like:

'To keep my own flow, I need to destroy the flow of all my colleagues'

And not:

'My colleagues destroy my flow when they can't babysit me and respond to my questions asap, how dare they'

It's like driving and then going like: 'Gee, all these other drivers are sure in my way, I need them out of the road so I can get places'. Guess what buddy, they also gotta get places, so damn right follow the laws, wait for your turn patiently and you will get there when you get there. Your colleagues also have stuff to do, and the world doesn't revolve only around YOUR flow.

So write down your questions and observations in a coherent list, stop pinging people one question at a time, or search harder in the docs provided that they exist, sometimes that's even better as a learning experience.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#82
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Basically like having a toddler around. Unnecessarily condescending response to the OP, to be honest.

Fair take. I am not trying to be condescending here, but it's hard to view this behavior as anything but overly disruptive. https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ Instead of "just a quick question", the OP could prepare a list of their questions, and ask them all at the allocated time. A scheduled deep dive into the questions the OP has might even be more productive than multiple unscheduled disrupt…

A scheduled list of questions at a preset time is often pretty bad too. Scheduling a 30 min VC for 1 simple little question sucks and conversely sometimes you have no idea how big of a can of worms you're about to open or who even has an opinion on it. Chat messages are best IMO but the team needs to make an effort to respond when they aren't in the zone.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#83
post #76
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> "we should just force people to go back to the office, just to teach those toddlers to behave like adults". (not always, it's just a knee-jerk reaction "oh come on, stop behaving like babies") Sorry for the adversarial tone, but "we should just force people" to me shows you deserve to be chastised a bit. First of all, you are not an employer (luckily), so there is no "we", each company decides for itself how to han…

> Sorry for the adversarial tone

From someone who called other people "toddler" ...

> - not wanting to waste an average of 2 ...

If you read my comment, you see that I called it a "knee-jerk reaction", it is not sometimes I will really defend. It is just when I see people like you, self-centered and unable to accept that someone can like interacting at the office without calling them "toddler" and inventing that these person will interrupt you for no good reason after you make clear you don't like it.

> Based on your views you are either ...

None of these descriptions correspond to me. This just confirm my feeling that you "think you know all" but don't really.

> and we are all snowflakes unreasonably complaining.

Let's be clear on that: I have nothing against you complaining. My problem is that you are complaining about what others are doing to you but you are also complaining that others don't accept you doing the same thing to them.

> They can't be good at coding if they don't understand the goal of the code

That's my point: people need to communicate A LOT, ask questions, interact. Bad developers are the ones who quickly create a picture in their head and then run with it. I see that a lot in my work (I'm a scientist in the R&D of my company, working with developers to create implementation of the models and algorithms my team design).

> Doing good work, for which you require peace and quiet and a focused state of mind, is what being good at coding is all about

And yet, I see developers focusing only on that and yet producing shit software.

> ... written form ... document well ...

But this is not what we are talking about. No one here is saying that this should not exist. But is not sufficient.

Let me demonstrate to you why. In software development, the whole process is based on the fact that bugs will happen. There are linter, code reviews, version controls that allow reverting, logs built in the code, advanced ticket system to deal with bug raising, ... Coding perfectly in one go is hard, impossible. Documentation and communicating things are obviously worse. Code are logical instruction with mathematical significance. Communication between person A and B can easily be misunderstood with both "being right", simply because human being cannot read minds and consider the thousand of possible mental pictures that the interlocutor has in mind. Because of that, documentation is bound to be more often incorrect than the code. It does not mean it should not be done, but it means that we should continue to continuously fine-tune our understanding, and it includes asking quick and easy questions.

Again, you are misconstruing the situation: no one here is arguing that writing things down is bad or should not be done. Simply, different mode of communication have different purpose and different pros and cons. Asking questions is sometimes the correct and smart thing to do.

> The premise that everyone is more efficient with constant interruption and questions pouring from every direction, all the time, is laughable at best.

WHO IS SAYING THAT. Can you show ONE, ONE person here who is defending that?

GP was simply saying that they like solving quick problem with a quick question, it avoids a lot of problem down the line or a lot of useless inefficient process.

Your reaction was to invent that GP would bother you all the time for information that exists somewhere else. You just have to realize that the world is more diverse than your own little person: some team works with little questions and it works very very well. The fact that you have to call GP toddler because their way of working is not the same as yours is why I think you are the toddler here. In fact, it is not even that their way of working is not the same as yours: you even seem to be asking people to do things that you will refuse to do yourself.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#84
post #8

In my whole professional life (last 15y) there was not a single time where I had anything resembling a private space where I could just close the door and work in peace. The norm here in German startup world seem to be open floors. And if you do have rooms they get crammed full of people. It's not the end of the world though. A room full of engineers is tolerable, and if they're on your team this is even desirable. T…

>the CEO wants to see everyone sweating

In all seriousness, sweating is the biggest factor for me. My clothes smell so much nicer ever since I began working from home

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#85
post #74
post #18

Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). Having people around me working on the same project is invaluable for me for * asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. * running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on c…

I can only second this. I honestly had the best time of my (professional) life when I had a little room with the rest of my team. Asking quick questions in such an environment is also not that much of a disturbance because most people are working on similar features at the moment and there's a high chance that they don't need to do the whole context switch to assist you. It's really highly productive. For the times w…

That's so different from my work. I work in a team of about 30 people on 1 feature of a very popular app. None of us are working on the same thing at any given time. Most projects have 1 person that works on it or knows how it works. It's sad and isolating. And the company forces this culture by virtue of how promo works.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#86
post #61
post #18

Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). Having people around me working on the same project is invaluable for me for * asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. * running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on c…

>Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). I wonder how many of these remaining 5 people have a take similar to me. WFH is where I'm most productive and most happy to work. Doing the kind of work you describe above "with 6 people on one project" is for 90% of the time an exe…

Phone? I'd always leave my status as do not disturb then. I don't know when I'm about to enter a state of productivity. Only once in a blue moon do I spin around in my chair quietly asking someone to come bug me because I'm bored/don't have anything fun to work on.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#87
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mildly inconvenienced Judging by GP comment, they sound like they are heavily inconvenienced. Am I reading it wrong?

I'm pretty sure that if you write down a list of inconveniencing things, this cannot be anywhere but at the bottom. The fact that some person will cry and shout that it is very very inconvenient seems to just confirm this person is acting like a toddler. But in fact you are right, "mildly inconvenient" may not be the best way to put it, it could have been "because otherwise you are as inconvenienced as they are if th…

[flagged]

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#88
post #78
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe the OP should write down all their questions in a structured format, and then schedule a meetings with 1 person helping them onboard, ... Let me guess: that 1 person will of course not be you, right? Because if it is you, I bet you will complain even more. Also, it's ridiculous to pretend that all questions require deep dive at length. Some do, and, yes, I agree we should do that for those. But what about…

> Let me guess: that 1 person will of course not be you, right? Because if it is you, I bet you will complain even more. I don't mind it being me, as a matter of fact, it's often me, as I am in a more senior position and have a lot of historic context. However, a lot of time has been spent on documenting most things, so often I am just going over the docs with the new onboarder, which is okay, as long as it's done in…

> I don't mind it being me, as a matter of fact, it's often me, as I am in a more senior position and have a lot of historic context. However, a lot of time has been spent on documenting most things, so often I am just going over the docs with the new onboarder, which is okay, as long as it's done in a structural manner.

So, according to you, no one would ever need to ask you a question. So, obviously, GP will never ask you a question (they will ask other people if they want to).

So why are you calling them "toddler"?

> I do mind, however, being interrupted all the time, on information, that could easily have been condensed in an onboarding package if the company gave people the space, time and initiative to create such a package.

This is not at all what OP was presenting. You realize that?

> What I am pointing out is that the OP experienced bad onboarding and thought the solution to that is being in-person in the office.

That is not true. Plenty of people are having a very good onboarding and still like to fine-tune their understanding of the situation, which is arguably a very good way to reach good software.

> would love share the information, but I want to do it in a structured manner, and not in chunks and without disruptions.

But that is exactly the point of my initial comment about workflow. When your colleague Johnny needs the quick and simple information X to allow him to finish his code (for example "I've read what ath3nd has written in the doc, but it is ambiguous because sometimes it is, obviously ath3nd is not a god who can read mind and think of all the interpretation of their comment, especially when ath3nd is also not expected to not introduce a bug in the code from time to time"), you are asking him to break his flow, write some kind of ticket, wait for it to be triaged and come to you and wait for you to answer.

Your initial point is that you need to not be interrupted when you are in your flow, and you are now arguing that we should use a very flow interrupting process for the other participants.

> That's why schools and unis have classes ...

Are you seriously pretending that GP that just said "asking quick questions and getting an instant answer" is in fact in favor of not having any structure at all?

In fact, guess what, in a lot of classes, students are allowed to ask questions during some part of the lecture, even during exercises. Yes, incredible, right: some students are concentrating on solving the exercises while others _talk_! They _talk_! In the same room! Instead of writing a written letter to the teacher and wait for the post return so they can proceed with the exercise they have a question about.

> And what's wrong with wanting lots of this information to be self-service?

No one here is arguing against that. Simply, you can have as much self-service you want, it will never make a quick and simple question not the most efficient way to go.

It is just incredible that some people are so self-centered that they cannot understand that asking simple and quick questions is just, SOMETIMES, a super pragmatical and efficient way of progressing.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you guys ever thought about the fact that there are nerds that like so socialize and hate working from home, because it gets f'ing lonely after a while? I want to see people. The corona pandamic where I worked almost 2 years from home drove me into a severe depression.

Yes, I have a theory based on this. I think that roughly 40%-60% of developers prefer remote, the remainder prefer in-office. So if you mandate in-office, roughly half of your developers will be unhappy. If you go full-remote, again, roughly half of your developers will be unhappy. So what do you do? I think you have to pick one and stick with it. Over time, you'll collect people who prefer remote or in-office. It wo…

The reason I like the office is mostly for the free food and events. I don't get much more out of my coworkers by being physically close to them. They don't like to be bugged (I don't either, usually). Maybe a little at lunch when I can pick their brains about random crap that doesn't warrant a meeting but not much.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#90
post #87
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that if you write down a list of inconveniencing things, this cannot be anywhere but at the bottom. The fact that some person will cry and shout that it is very very inconvenient seems to just confirm this person is acting like a toddler. But in fact you are right, "mildly inconvenient" may not be the best way to put it, it could have been "because otherwise you are as inconvenienced as they are if th…

[flagged]

Hm, one could as legitimately argue: if the person who has the knowledge FAILED to document it properly and give it to the person who needs it. Then the person who has the knowledge is the one who deserve to have their flow disrupted instead of the person who notice they haven't done their work. Why should the person who demands the knowledge pays for the other person failure?

But more importantly, a grown-up would say: the two persons are collaborating, they are not fighting each other. The person who has knowledge is a grown-up, they will want the work to progress correctly and they will want to see their colleague succeed professionally and socially. The person who needs the knowledge is a grown-up, they will not ask over and over again when they see it disturbs the person who has the knowledge (and no one here is against that, obviously).

That's a sad way of seeing professional relationship, but also not a very smart way too: in real life, your own position is biased: when Mr X asks Mr Y a question, it is because Mr X truly believe it's a legitimate question. But maybe Mr Y has written the doc somewhere and Mr X missed it (which can and will happen). In which case, Mr Y will think Mr X is "wrong". But how Mr X can be sure he is not "wrong": Mr X does not know what he does not know. Or maybe Mr Y has written the doc, but badly. In which case, Mr Y will incorrectly think Mr X is "wrong". Or maybe ...

In short: grown-ups understand that communication is messy and that "counting points" is just ridiculous, inefficient and just something that a person who has poor understanding of the reality will think is fine.

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