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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#61
post #18

Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). Having people around me working on the same project is invaluable for me for * asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. * running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on c…

>Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had).

I wonder how many of these remaining 5 people have a take similar to me. WFH is where I'm most productive and most happy to work. Doing the kind of work you describe above "with 6 people on one project" is for 90% of the time an exercise in babying the least up to speed team member at the cost of distracting everyone.

I get it, some people just like being around people and doing stuff "together", and some types of work may even benefit from that when stars align(brainstorming etc). Most types of work I do in software don't. Especially now, post covid when WFH became normalised and people who were opposed to it on various grounds were forced to learn how to use it effectively.

>* asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours.

That's what the phone is for, with additional benefit of status from everyone. If I see someone is busy I don't phone them I look for someone else, If I see they are "green" I do and I get my answer instantly without disturbing anyone.

>running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on chat for me, and VC is too scheduled

Again, same thing. Pick up a phone. If you just want to run something "by everyone". Wait for your daily/weekly team meeting and ask then. Yes, it forces you to write ideas down not to forget them (if they can wait), but it's massively more convenient to everyone else.

> * brainstorming. Same as above

I had many a good brainstorming session online (mostly with voice). What do you need to accomplish it is: - good audio equipment, Internet access and a quiet location for everyone. No calling into a meeting "from my car, while going to the doctor", or "from the office while people are talking in the background", no "crappy headphones etc". All this ruins productivity for everyone. If people are using cameras(which is nice) everyone has to have the bandwidth for it. Also if you have more than 5 people in your meeting, make use of the "raise hand" feature. Then brainstorming can happen very well. Especially while looking at a document/whiteboard together with systems that show you in real time what everyone does.

In fact above a certain number of people (8 maybe) brainstorming sessions seem a lot more effective to me online than in person. Why? Because you have few communication channels. You have the shared whiteboard/document, voice, and chat so while someone is talking you can post a question to the chat without interrupting.

>getting a feeling for what everyone is up to

That's what regular planning meeting is for.

>feeling part of a team, working on the same thing

I suppose that's a personal thing, but I always felt that including during my 7 years of WFH 100%.

Edit: there is only one real disadvantage to WFH, and it's for junior people wanting to learn. It's much harder to gather knowledge by osmosis, just by being in the office if most senior people are WFH. But then as a leader one has to decide what is more important.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#62
post #22

The article oversimplifies things a little, IMHO. It's not the open floor plan office that's the main cause of the problem for DnD type work, nor are offices with doors a general solution. It's all about policy. A separate office with a door doesn't do you any good if every ten minutes someone drops by to knock on it. A private office also doesn't help if you're constantly bombarded with "urgent" messages from variou…

I always see noise cancelling headphones put forward as a solution to noisy office environments . . . I don't want to wear headphones. I don't want to be cut off in my own bubble. I want to be connected to my environment, and I want it to be a nice place to get my work done.

And some people don't want to stop interacting just to cater to you, and some people want you to answer their question immediately so they don't break their flow.

And I have sometimes seen people saying things similar to you, and then being loud or distracting when it was more convenient for them.

I understand your position, but as usual with these discussion, everything seems to always centered about "what I would prefer" rather than trying to understand everyone's needs.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#63
post #3
post #2

Although I am sympathetic overall, it really isn't about programmers, it's about anyone doing mental-flow work with focus. Open plan is for a different state of mind and product. It can be condusive to some good outcomes, but the cost is the loss of flow. Writers need flow. People studying need flow. I could imagine techs looking at breast cancer scans need flow. It isn't only programmers who need this.

In the same vein, an office with a door won't help at all if you have higher-ups who expects instant responses to any messaging/e-mail query every five minutes.

Well, if you don't answer instantly, then you are stopping them in their flow.

I've noticed this some times ago and now I cannot unsee it: this all discussion is too often about "what is best for me and my flow even if it ruins other people's flow" rather than discussing a proper solution.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#64
post #37

People like you are the reason I personally don't want to be in an office. > asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. Basically like having a toddler around. Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. Or I migh…

I think I would be fine not having you in the office, given your condescending response.. > Basically like having a toddler around. I changed jobs during lockdown. When I've joined other companies earlier, everyone knew to step in to help the new guy. So people would constantly ask me how I was doing, see if I were struggling and ask to help me, or I could just poke someone in the room. But getting onboarded remotely…

When I read your account of your onboarding at two different companies, I can only see a company with a good culture and another company with a poor culture. If you had onboarded the first company remotely, I bet you would have got check-in messages. Similarly, if you had onboarded the second company on-site, nobody would have cared about how you were doing.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#65
post #59
post #37

People like you are the reason I personally don't want to be in an office. > asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. Basically like having a toddler around. Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. Or I migh…

[flagged]

> mildly inconvenienced

Judging by GP comment, they sound like they are heavily inconvenienced. Am I reading it wrong?

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#66
post #49
post #35

Judging by the comments here, nobody is doing pair programming / mob programming?

I don't think pair programming exists in reality. It is talked about a lot. Pair debugging does exist but only when stuff goes wrong. This is the vain hope that perhaps two people can make up one competent person when the shit has hit the fan.

And quite often pair programming could be done by single programmer and inanimate object.

Still. It does often work, specially if the other person has better knowledge of technology or code in question.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#67
post #37

People like you are the reason I personally don't want to be in an office. > asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. Basically like having a toddler around. Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. Or I migh…

This shit about being connected is killing me, people goes to work as part of their social life and are ruining everyone else existence, if people doesn’t have connections therapist is where they should go not coworkers

To be fair, I was a bit overly harsh with the OP, and it's purely due to reactionary reasons, as I've been far too often on the receiving end of a barrage of questions from multiple sides, while trying to meet deadlines. And I don't blame the newcomers, they are simply finding their way in a bad situation, I blame the company.

The funny part here is that the companies expect you to help onboard new employees AND do your other work at the same time, while at the same refusing to give you the time to build on a proper onboarding, with documentation to read, what software to install, etc.

In my current company we assign a "buddy" to the new onboarders, we have a handbook + a (supported and tested) onboarding installation toolkit, and pretty good documentation. The buddy does the handholding via scheduled and ad-hoc sessions, the onboarding material does the rest. During the pandemic we got to test this approach out on people who haven't even visited the office, and we improved it iteratively on every new onboardee. It's surprising how just improving such a small thing makes onboarding so much more pleasant for everybody, and how this, when done well, works both for office AND remote new employees.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#68
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> mildly inconvenienced Judging by GP comment, they sound like they are heavily inconvenienced. Am I reading it wrong?

I'm pretty sure that if you write down a list of inconveniencing things, this cannot be anywhere but at the bottom. The fact that some person will cry and shout that it is very very inconvenient seems to just confirm this person is acting like a toddler.

But in fact you are right, "mildly inconvenient" may not be the best way to put it, it could have been "because otherwise you are as inconvenienced as they are if they follow your wish". After all, that is my point: I don't say it's not inconvenient for you, I'm just asking why should a group prefer the solution where A is inconvenienced and B not inconvenienced over a solution where B is inconvenienced and A not inconvenienced.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#70
post #60
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair take. I am not trying to be condescending here, but it's hard to view this behavior as anything but overly disruptive. https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ Instead of "just a quick question", the OP could prepare a list of their questions, and ask them all at the allocated time. A scheduled deep dive into the questions the OP has might even be more productive than multiple unscheduled disrupt…

So what you are asking is that OP destroy their own "deep work" a lot just that you don't get a mild distraction in yours. > And in an open office, even if you ask only a single person something, others might hear it too, despite the question not being intended to them. I guess I'm special, because when I'm in a "deep work", I just don't hear people around me. I know it's not the case of everyone, some of my colleagu…

> So what you are asking is that OP destroy their own "deep work" a lot just that you don't get a mild distraction in yours.

Yes! I believe the OP should write down all their questions in a structured format, and then schedule a meetings with 1 person helping them onboard, where they can discuss the questions at length and go on any tangent, rather than interrupt colleagues ad hoc. That's a normal, grown up thing to do, and it will also help them crystallize and distill what knowledge is missing.

> I know it's not the case of everyone, some of my colleagues just put noise-suppression headphones, which is yet another easy way to solve your problem without forcing others to cater to your needs

I do put noise suppression headphones, but they can't stop the people moving in front of me nor the taps on my shoulder.

> without forcing others to cater to your needs

Not wanting to be interrupted is not forcing others to take care of your needs.If you are unsure what I mean, let me call you in the middle of the night because I want to have a conversation with somebody and discuss economics. You not wanting to pick up is completely normal, right, or are you forcing ME to cater to your needs of being left the heck at peace? How dare you forcing me to have normal boundaries and call you at reasonable times!

No, it's the people who interrupt others and forcing to drop everything else so they answer "just one tiny question" and expecting it to be done on the spot. That's forcing people to take cater to their needs! Hence me liking the OP's behavior to that of a toddler.

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