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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#71
post #7

But, why offices at all? All my productivity problems are solved by just working from home.

Have you guys ever thought about the fact that there are nerds that like so socialize and hate working from home, because it gets f'ing lonely after a while? I want to see people. The corona pandamic where I worked almost 2 years from home drove me into a severe depression.

Yes, I have a theory based on this. I think that roughly 40%-60% of developers prefer remote, the remainder prefer in-office. So if you mandate in-office, roughly half of your developers will be unhappy. If you go full-remote, again, roughly half of your developers will be unhappy. So what do you do? I think you have to pick one and stick with it. Over time, you'll collect people who prefer remote or in-office. It won't be easy, but doing "hybrid" is absolutely the wrong decision, that makes no one happy.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#72
post #21

> Why do need/want ? I'm starting to consider these sorts of low-effort, divisive titles as click bait these days.

The internet repeats itself a lot. If you want truly novel and thoughtful content you will want to turn to books. Audiobooks are fine, so are obscure technical corners of the web, what you want is the deep and expert content that is not surfaced in the short feedback loops of the internet.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#73
In defense of the distracting open plan office, I find that I can only really be productive when I am being disrupted semi-regularly. My talkative boss or my noisy coworker are distracting and theoretically take me out of flow, but ai wouldn’t even reach that flow if they weren’t there to make me want to get there (or just provide enough stimulation to sate my hungry brain).

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#74
post #18

Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). Having people around me working on the same project is invaluable for me for * asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. * running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on c…

I can only second this. I honestly had the best time of my (professional) life when I had a little room with the rest of my team.

Asking quick questions in such an environment is also not that much of a disturbance because most people are working on similar features at the moment and there's a high chance that they don't need to do the whole context switch to assist you. It's really highly productive.

For the times where you really needed some time for yourself, headphones work just fine. I wouldn't want to wear them all the time as even the best ones become uncomfortable after few hours, but that's also not really needed in a small shared room.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#75
post #70
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you are asking is that OP destroy their own "deep work" a lot just that you don't get a mild distraction in yours. > And in an open office, even if you ask only a single person something, others might hear it too, despite the question not being intended to them. I guess I'm special, because when I'm in a "deep work", I just don't hear people around me. I know it's not the case of everyone, some of my colleagu…

> So what you are asking is that OP destroy their own "deep work" a lot just that you don't get a mild distraction in yours. Yes! I believe the OP should write down all their questions in a structured format, and then schedule a meetings with 1 person helping them onboard, where they can discuss the questions at length and go on any tangent, rather than interrupt colleagues ad hoc. That's a normal, grown up thing to…

> I believe the OP should write down all their questions in a structured format, and then schedule a meetings with 1 person helping them onboard, ...

Let me guess: that 1 person will of course not be you, right? Because if it is you, I bet you will complain even more.

Also, it's ridiculous to pretend that all questions require deep dive at length. Some do, and, yes, I agree we should do that for those. But what about the majority of the questions? If these questions still exist, then you will still be interrupted, so it will not solve the situation.

Also, it is quite telling that you did not also consider another solution: if they need to ask you a question, you could have avoided that by properly sharing the information before hand. But of course, it's always someone else's fault. (just to be clear: it is sometimes someone else's fault, but your way of reacting of just thinking that everyone else should adapt is just giving me the impression that you don't care about solving the problem in a fair way)

But it does not answer my question: what you ask them to do is very inconvenient and inefficient, as the large majority of questions do not correspond to big dangerous lack of knowledge that needs 3 hours lecture course to be solved. So we still have the problem: why should the company pay for one person being less efficient because of needing to do all this useless process, instead of paying for you being less efficient?

> I do put noise suppression headphones, but they can't stop the people moving in front of me ...

As I've said, I don't understand how people can be in "deep flow" and be so easily distracted by people moving around. People are different, so I can understand it can be a problem for you. But my problem with this reaction is that everything is centered around what is best for you, without any considerations of how it affects others. I reacted because you first mentioned that GP was behaving like a toddler, but in your reaction and the description of the problem, you seems to focus on you, you, you, which does not look very grown-up either, don't you think?

> ... nor the taps on my shoulder

If they tap on your shoulder, you should simply answer, like a grown-up does.

> Not wanting to be interrupted is not forcing others to take care of your needs.If you are unsure what I mean, let me call you in the middle of the night ...

But you are not complaining about being interrupted in the middle of the night to talk about things that is not related to you, you are complaining about doing your job: working with colleagues and sharing information so that they can progress.

What I'm saying is simple: 1) you can be a toddler and interrupt someone constantly for no good reason. This is not good and unprofessional 2) you can be a toddler and cry when someone interrupt you for a good reason. This is not good and unprofessional 3) the good situation is in the middle: you WILL have some level of interruption, it is just unreasonable to expect otherwise and it is childish to ask people to jump through hoops to care to your need to never be interrupted.

> How dare you forcing me to have normal boundaries and call you at reasonable times!

You don't have normal boundaries. Grown-ups at work know that they will interact with other people. You inventing that people should not interact with you, or interact only in your own terms even when it is inconvenient for them.

> Hence me liking the OP's behavior to that of a toddler.

OP's behavior did not even mention if they interrupt people that have inform them they don't want to be interrupted. As far as we know, OP's behavior is 100% compatible with what you want.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#76
post #59
post #37

People like you are the reason I personally don't want to be in an office. > asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. Basically like having a toddler around. Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. Or I migh…

[flagged]

> "we should just force people to go back to the office, just to teach those toddlers to behave like adults". (not always, it's just a knee-jerk reaction "oh come on, stop behaving like babies")

Sorry for the adversarial tone, but "we should just force people" to me shows you deserve to be chastised a bit. First of all, you are not an employer (luckily), so there is no "we", each company decides for itself how to handle remote, and luckily, many have weighed on the benefits and have decided to go with that.

Second, the premise of you saying "oh come on, stop behaving like babies" shows to me that you think that "behaving like a baby" means:

- not wanting to waste an average of 2 (unpaid) hours of your day stuck in traffic commuting (which, by the way, is also bad for the environment)

- wanting peaceful and quiet atmosphere where you can focus on your work without noise and people tapping you on the shoulders

And I don't want even to argue with that, it's that bad of a take. Based on your views you are either young and full of energy (not having children), or old enough (boomer) and with people taking care of chores for you (wife) that to you it is the norm and we are all snowflakes unreasonably complaining. I don't see our views and incentives aligning on this.

> The number one problem I see at my work place is devs that are good at coding but that are very bad at even understanding what is the goal of the code they are doing.

That's just bad developers. They can't be good at coding if they don't understand the goal of the code, that's an oxymoron.

> Between a great coder and an average coder, the one who is good at being interrupted is a better dev. Coding in itself is just part of skill, but it is not the most important.

Doing good work, for which you require peace and quiet and a focused state of mind, is what being good at coding is all about. Also, most of the times it's better if a discussion is in a written form (e.g slack/PR/ticket) so others can use it as a reference in the future, rather than a chat you and Josh had at the whiteboard. Being a good coder also means being able to document well what your reasoning are, what your design is, and how to implement it, both things which require you to write it the HECK down.

> For me, you are the one who sounds like a toddler who asks everyone around them to be less efficient just because otherwise you are mildly inconvenienced.

The premise that everyone is more efficient with constant interruption and questions pouring from every direction, all the time, is laughable at best. There is ton of research that office interruptions drag down the productivity of the group, while all you have is some boomer's feeling that people are working better where they can observe them.

I started this response by saying I am sorry for the adversarial tone of my response, but the more I think of this now, the more I am not sorry. I see opinions like yours as a part of the problem why the rest of us can't have good things and a quiet and productive work life. If you want to go the office to get immersed in the beautiful, inspiring atmosphere of rows of desks with guys with headphones click-clacking away on their keyboards and discussing the last season of Game of Thrones, be my guest and go for it, but I am happy that the rest of us can choose not to.

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/eve...

https://juliety.com/effects-of-distractions-at-work

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/11/why-open-offi...

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I would be fine not having you in the office, given your condescending response.. > Basically like having a toddler around. I changed jobs during lockdown. When I've joined other companies earlier, everyone knew to step in to help the new guy. So people would constantly ask me how I was doing, see if I were struggling and ask to help me, or I could just poke someone in the room. But getting onboarded remotely…

When I read your account of your onboarding at two different companies, I can only see a company with a good culture and another company with a poor culture. If you had onboarded the first company remotely, I bet you would have got check-in messages. Similarly, if you had onboarded the second company on-site, nobody would have cared about how you were doing.

Yes, but that's the company culture the one I'm replying to is advocating for. A culture where you never should dare asking anyone for help, as you're inconveniencing them. Just sit silent with your problems and schedule a meeting the next day, and they might find it in their heart to help you. Or also get annoyed by "all the meetings destroying their focus time"..

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#78
post #75
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what you are asking is that OP destroy their own "deep work" a lot just that you don't get a mild distraction in yours. Yes! I believe the OP should write down all their questions in a structured format, and then schedule a meetings with 1 person helping them onboard, where they can discuss the questions at length and go on any tangent, rather than interrupt colleagues ad hoc. That's a normal, grown up thing to…

> I believe the OP should write down all their questions in a structured format, and then schedule a meetings with 1 person helping them onboard, ... Let me guess: that 1 person will of course not be you, right? Because if it is you, I bet you will complain even more. Also, it's ridiculous to pretend that all questions require deep dive at length. Some do, and, yes, I agree we should do that for those. But what about…

> Let me guess: that 1 person will of course not be you, right? Because if it is you, I bet you will complain even more.

I don't mind it being me, as a matter of fact, it's often me, as I am in a more senior position and have a lot of historic context. However, a lot of time has been spent on documenting most things, so often I am just going over the docs with the new onboarder, which is okay, as long as it's done in a structural manner.

> You don't have normal boundaries. Grown-ups at work know that they will interact with other people. You inventing that people should not interact with you, or interact only in your own terms even when it is inconvenient for them.

I don't mind interacting at all, nor do I mind onboarding. I do mind, however, being interrupted all the time, on information, that could easily have been condensed in an onboarding package if the company gave people the space, time and initiative to create such a package.

What I am pointing out is that the OP experienced bad onboarding and thought the solution to that is being in-person in the office. I would argue what they simply had was a badly planned onboarding, with randomly shared responsibility across the team, and an ad-hoc learning plan. If the OP's company uses that lesson and makes a better onboarding process, that'd be great and they might even reconsider the need to be there in person.

> you are complaining about doing your job: working with colleagues and sharing information so that they can progress.

I would love share the information, but I want to do it in a structured manner, and not in chunks and without disruptions.

That's why schools and unis have classes, and classes have predictable and scheduled time frames. It's not just a building with teachers, and random children entering ad hoc and asking whatever question came to their head, then leaving, and coming back 5 min later.

And what's wrong with wanting lots of this information to be self-service? That's the whole idea of knowledge bases, of onboarding docs, of developer handbooks. What does it have to with people being in person or not? I'd argue if the OP's company spent the effort in actually putting all that knowledge in writing, they will have an easier and less disruptive onboarding to the team, with reduced bus factor, and clearly documented steps.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#79
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mildly inconvenienced Judging by GP comment, they sound like they are heavily inconvenienced. Am I reading it wrong?

I'm pretty sure that if you write down a list of inconveniencing things, this cannot be anywhere but at the bottom. The fact that some person will cry and shout that it is very very inconvenient seems to just confirm this person is acting like a toddler. But in fact you are right, "mildly inconvenient" may not be the best way to put it, it could have been "because otherwise you are as inconvenienced as they are if th…

I think one is more inconvenienced than the other. If someone doesn't answer your question immediately, search harder. The answer is out there somewhere.
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