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Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

advisorybikelanes.com

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Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#81

Post by murphyslab »

Beltalowda wrote: post #76
murphyslab wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. A large part of this, from what I've observed living in Canada and the Netherlands, is the different perspectives borne out of each culture. In the Netherlands, everyone grows up having been a bicycle commuter. It's how every child gets to school. So everyone has been a bicycle commuter for at least some period of their lives and can sympathize with…

I lived in the Netherlands, England, Ireland, and New Zealand; England and Ireland are not "bike countries" either, but for the most part it was actually pretty okay cycling in the city: there are enough cyclists around, roads are small, and most people understand that the limited space needs to be shared. New Zealand, however, was a different story. The roads are huge, US-style, and a significant number of cyclists…

> I think the mandatory helmet laws aren't helping either: it instils the impression that you're doing something inherently dangerous on a space not intended for you.

Oddly, the use of helmets may alter the perceptions of drivers opposite to what you suggest. There have been a couple studies showing that drivers, when seeing a bicycle commuter wearing a helmet, give that bicycle rider *less* room upon passing, compared to a bicycle rider who is not wearing a helmet.

There's a good summary of the observed effect which also provides links to the published research:

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a25358099/drivers-give-helmet...

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#82

Post by murphyslab »

cowmoo728 wrote: post #63
blenderdt wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the rules in the US but in the Netherlands the car is always at fault in case of an accident, unless it is proven the cyclist was at fault. This makes the roads a lot safer for cyclists. When this law was introduced years ago the Dutch also made fun of it: https://youtu.be/ivY06w83fKU

American drivers are rarely prosecuted for murdering cyclists, even if the driver was running a red light, speeding, or committing some other kind of traffic violation. Even drivers that hit-and-run regularly get off with some kind of "time served" or probation plea. Sometimes they'll be given a moving violation fine of a few hundred dollars. This is an opinion piece from 2013 but is still accurate because enforcemen…

In British Columbia this year (after some changes to the insurance system), the provincial insurance corporation, ICBC, billed a cyclist $3700 for damage to a car that hit him after the car driver blew through a stop sign:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/cyclist-bill...

They have just in the past month updated the policy, but there have been several instances of this in the past 12 months.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#83

Post by halffaday »

Use sharrows. Changing the meaning of stripes for one special type of road is a terrible idea.

There also really needs to be more aggressive standards for participation in transportation planning. I see way too many “ideas guys” playing engineer. I’m looking at you, landscape architects!

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#84

Post by wyager »

tremon wrote: post #61
wyager wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There exist optimization criteria besides "reduce the number of deaths". In particular, the enjoyment of drivers is an important optimization criterion.

Which drivers? Lorry drivers? Race car drivers? Soccer moms? Commuters? Motorcyclists? Regular cyclists? Jockeys? Draft-horse drivers? I grant you that it certainly is a criterion for optimization, but I would call it important only for race tracks, not public roads.

> Which drivers

Somewhere on the pareto frontier. You can do a good job for most of them.

> but I would call it important only for race tracks, not public roads.

Utility theory doesn't stop working off a race track.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#85

Post by wyager »

cycomanic wrote: post #49
wyager wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There exist optimization criteria besides "reduce the number of deaths". In particular, the enjoyment of drivers is an important optimization criterion.

Why? and in particular why drivers only?

> Why?

Because I like it when people enjoy things. Do you not?

> and in particular why drivers only?

Where did I imply "drivers only"?

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#86

Post by wyager »

dqv wrote: post #52
wyager wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There exist optimization criteria besides "reduce the number of deaths". In particular, the enjoyment of drivers is an important optimization criterion.

>In particular, the enjoyment of drivers is an important optimization criterion. Yeah but it's not (it shouldn't be) important for every road . And that's the point. We want roads that drivers prefer for "enjoyment" (I have never enjoyed driving a vehicle) and roads that optimize for bicycle rider and pedestrian enjoyment. The drivers can stay on the driver roads and bicycle riders and pedestrians can stay on the bic…

> it's not (it shouldn't be) important for every road.

It is important for every road, but sometimes it makes sense to prioritize other traffic types (which is why the OP is reasonable in some circumstances).

> I have never enjoyed driving a vehicle

You are not a modal American in this regard.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#87

Post by hedora »

samatman wrote: post #57
Freak_NL wrote: post #12

> This roadway configuration originated in the Netherlands where they have over 50 years and many hundreds of road-kilometers of experience with this facility. Well yeah, but we use this specific configuration with the shared centre lane only on the lowest tier of rural roads where traffic is limited and the speed limit is 60 km/h (roughly 40 mph), and some select urban streets where they act as a traffic calming mea…

As an American it was immediately clear to me the sort of road this website is suggesting we replace with edge lane roads. They are two lane, dotted-white divided, and limited to 45mph. Very common rural and exurban pattern. This might not have been as clear outside of the North American context.

In most places, the roads I think you're referring to would be dotted yellow divided (unless you mean a 45-mph two-lane one-way road).

In many states speed limits on such roads are 55-75mph. The thing in the article isn't a replacement for those at all.

This configuration looks like an alternative to one-lane, two-way roads in the US (typically no lines, 25mph speed limit; usually only for short parts of longer rural roads; often found near dirt/gravel roads).

One lane roads in the US have room for cars to pull off on the berm to let ongoing traffic pass. This seems similar. A bike wouldn't want to cruise along the red bits of a rural road like the one in the article, becuase they'd repeatedly hit debris. However, the dotted line provide guides to cars to allow them to avoid hitting bikes as they pass, and stretches of a few dozen yards in the red zone would usually be fine.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#88

Post by hedora »

cowmoo728 wrote: post #9

I recently did a few consecutive full day bicycle trips around the Netherlands and rode on many roads like this. I felt safe and drivers were respectful and patient when passing. I would never ride on one of these in the US. I can already imagine the Amazon delivery van or work truck parked in the bicycle section, forcing me into the center. I can also imagine the impatient drivers accelerating way beyond the speed l…

I wouldn't use something like this in the SF Bay Area, at least in winter months. The drivers are courteous enough, but Califonia paints bike lanes with green paint that becomes slick if wet or covered in leaves.

The worst part is that cars get super confused / angry when bicyclists use the car lane instead of the "perfectly good" bike lane.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#89

Post by PeterStuer »

We have very many of these in Belgium. Their purpose seems to be mostly to refrain cyclists from using their right to cycle side by side in the urban areas, and cheaply prop up the political numbers for 'cycling infrastructure' while avoiding diehard motorist backlash.

Even after decades of use, they still confuse the road users. Cyclists that think of them as bicycle lanes (wrong), and most motorists that think of them as just a part of their normal car lane (right).

My heuristic has always been 'if you can create it with a bucket of paint and a brush it is not a bicycle path'.

Re: Edge Lane Roads a.k.a. Advisory Bike Lanes

#90

Post by cycomanic »

wyager wrote: post #85
cycomanic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? and in particular why drivers only?

> Why? Because I like it when people enjoy things. Do you not? > and in particular why drivers only? Where did I imply "drivers only"?

> Where did I imply "drivers only"?

You only mention enjoyment of drivers in an article about shared roadways. Omitting cyclist is a statement I would argue.

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