Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

tchrd.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 283 posts

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#81

Post by whimsicalism »

cyberpunk wrote: post #65

As a zen Buddhist, I've always kinda felt our Tibetan 'dharma brothers' style of buddhism (admittedly, I don't know a lot about) feels much more like a proper religion than the kind of thing I've been into.. Which put me off quite a lot of it, I still hope to someday visit the place. It’s pretty sad that such an essentially peaceful and introspective group of people are abused thus, even if they believe in some prett…

They were not so peaceful and introspective when they were actually in power. This is basically a CCP talking point at this point, but it is pretty true that the system they governed was essentially a serfdom-powered society.

See the sort of punishments that were common for people who tried to organize the serfs in any way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungshar

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#82

Post by technobabbler »

cyberpunk wrote: post #65

As a zen Buddhist, I've always kinda felt our Tibetan 'dharma brothers' style of buddhism (admittedly, I don't know a lot about) feels much more like a proper religion than the kind of thing I've been into.. Which put me off quite a lot of it, I still hope to someday visit the place. It’s pretty sad that such an essentially peaceful and introspective group of people are abused thus, even if they believe in some prett…

IMHO only, not an expert/informed analysis: Buddhism can be a risk to Chinese harmony if left to a separate authority (the real Dalai Lama). The Chinese grand social experiment of a strong state can only really work if they are relatively culturally homogenous, whether in Tibet or Hong Kong or Xinjiang or Taiwan. Dissent plants the seeds of change, and the CCP's system doesn't work when there is too much diversity of values. It's uber-collectivism in the name of the nation.

China very rarely does anything in the name of short-term profit. Their government doesn't work on 4-year competitive cycles like ours does, they plan and orchestrate in decades, and to them it's safer to conquer and assimilate other territories while they are still underdeveloped than when they become too powerful, either economically (like Taiwan) or culturally (like Tibet) or both (like Hong Kong). Having a puppet religious master under their control, along with all of Tibet's future economic output, is reason enough to seize it, even the real gains won't be realized for another few decades. The artificial legitimacy of Chinese-controlled Buddhism would greatly expand their cultural sphere of influence both inside and outside their immediate borders.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#83

Post by DomainEater247 »

peppertree wrote: post #46
yumraj wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with a theocratic government if the people want it and it suits their way of life, especially if it is a peaceful spiritual way of life and makes people happy. Last I checked Bhutan, which is also Buddhist, was doing well. Also, I hope you're not saying that the way of the China/CCP is better than how Tibetans were before Chinese invasion. I don't think they were ever ravaged , unless you're referring t…

Bhutan government has done some brutal things to Nepalis in the 90's. Catholic church was much worse when it had actual power. State propaganda can be overwhelming to weak minds but a little history lesson can cure it. To be clear I'm not for CCP or any autocracy. I'm against theocracy.

You described some example of Theocracy's that performed brutal acts against those that were perceived as "others". USA is responsible for many deaths and is constantly invading countries. Since using examples of bad things a government type has done is enough to say that the type of government is bad, democracy in turn must be bad. /s

Any form of government once formed is hard to change. How many governments do you see regularly changing from democracy to communism to theocracy to etc... Theocracy is a perfect valid form of governance.

Religion's just like governments have multiple sides to them. Which side the rulers decided to focus on changes which actions are performed.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#84

Post by whimsicalism »

cuteboy19 wrote: post #66
stjohnswarts wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really though? Does this generation get to decide that all generations following it should live under a theocratic dictatorship? I'm not sure that's a whole lot better than Chinese control. Anyone who thinks the old Tibetan monarchy/aristocrat system was a good form of government should really read up on it and not just assume it was paradise for the Tibetan people. They still had serfs and slaves.

There are many kinds of "theocracy". The islamic republic of Pakistan is significantly better than Saudi Arabia. Or would your rather have them both as "rightful Chinese territory"?

Sure, but are you at all familiar with the history of pre-CCP Tibet? Their "theocracy" was likely worse than Saudi Arabias, both in terms of the sorts of punishments they inflicted upon their populace (routine gouging of the eyes, chopping of the limbs, and then hanging up for display) as well as the autocratic (serf-like) structure built up.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#86

Post by JoeAltmaier »

DomainEater247 wrote: post #83
peppertree wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bhutan government has done some brutal things to Nepalis in the 90's. Catholic church was much worse when it had actual power. State propaganda can be overwhelming to weak minds but a little history lesson can cure it. To be clear I'm not for CCP or any autocracy. I'm against theocracy.

You described some example of Theocracy's that performed brutal acts against those that were perceived as "others". USA is responsible for many deaths and is constantly invading countries. Since using examples of bad things a government type has done is enough to say that the type of government is bad, democracy in turn must be bad. /s Any form of government once formed is hard to change. How many governments do you…

Yes but unlike say a democracy, you can't vote the theocracy out. You can't be treated fairly if you are not of the official religion. You become an outsider, never to be treated like a full citizen, because of who you are.

Imagine if instead of religion it was skin color, or gender, or hell even height - only people over 2 meters could be in government. Can we whitewash those too? Are they as legitimate as Theocracy? Why not?

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#87

Post by dirtyid »

cyberpunk wrote: post #65

As a zen Buddhist, I've always kinda felt our Tibetan 'dharma brothers' style of buddhism (admittedly, I don't know a lot about) feels much more like a proper religion than the kind of thing I've been into.. Which put me off quite a lot of it, I still hope to someday visit the place. It’s pretty sad that such an essentially peaceful and introspective group of people are abused thus, even if they believe in some prett…

It's 1/10 of modern Chinese territory, no one is going to give up that much land. Headwaters to major rivers feeding South Asia. Security, see CIA's Tibet program. Unlimited mineral resources.

>making them a profit

It's mostly not, spending billions on high speed rail and other infra linkage to control restive region and the entire western theater command security network is expensive. But wealth + new military capabilities makes taming this frontier feasible. Military forces in Tibet can reach huge strategic areas of South Asia while Tibet itself is buffer from core PRC territories. The richer PRC is is, the easier exploiting Tibet becomes, and the more there is to be gained. Serious mining started just 10 years ago.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#88

Post by skilled »

technobabbler wrote: post #78
skilled wrote: post #53

I lived in Dharamshala (home to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile) for 3 months a few years ago. My partner at the time went back to the US to visit family, and I didn't want to leave Asia so I went there since I had some interest in Buddhism at the time, too. In random book stores, I met actual monks who had served time (in China) as political prisoners. One of which had also written a book about it…

So... what did they think was the future for Tibet?

I certainly didn't ask that question from a political perspective. I'm not delusional to assume that Tibet and its people stand a chance against China.

And this was also reflected in their answers.

They're mostly concerned with ensuring that people have a safe passage out of there (having the ability to go to India and lead a life without oppression), while trying to negotiate peace deals for sacred locations and the deep Tibet. But I do think that this has been consistently falling on deaf ears. And, of course, they are hoping that the Dalai Lama will choose to reincarnate again to keep the "fight" going.

Getting out of Tibet is not exactly a walk in the park. Though, it is a walk. A long and gloomy walk through treacherous mountains which in 70%+ cases leave people with frostbite and other injuries.

I befriended a yoga teacher who was teaching an authentic Tibetan practice, and he sometimes had people over at his studio who had the day prior arrived to Dharamshala, from Tibet, through the mountain passages. It's unreal.

It's not like they have the luxury of an empire conglomerate like other modern countries, but India has been good to them.

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#89

Post by technobabbler »

whimsicalism wrote: post #81
cyberpunk wrote: post #65

As a zen Buddhist, I've always kinda felt our Tibetan 'dharma brothers' style of buddhism (admittedly, I don't know a lot about) feels much more like a proper religion than the kind of thing I've been into.. Which put me off quite a lot of it, I still hope to someday visit the place. It’s pretty sad that such an essentially peaceful and introspective group of people are abused thus, even if they believe in some prett…

They were not so peaceful and introspective when they were actually in power. This is basically a CCP talking point at this point, but it is pretty true that the system they governed was essentially a serfdom-powered society. See the sort of punishments that were common for people who tried to organize the serfs in any way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungshar

Just as a side thought... if you look long enough at any country's history, you'll surely find horrors and terrible individuals. But that rarely means that country or its modern descendants would want to be "liberated" by a foreign conquerer, whether that's China or the USA. Forced assimilation is a form of genocide and people would almost always choose to be oppressed by one of their own rather than a foreigner...

Re: Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation protest

#90

Post by whimsicalism »

technobabbler wrote: post #89
whimsicalism wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were not so peaceful and introspective when they were actually in power. This is basically a CCP talking point at this point, but it is pretty true that the system they governed was essentially a serfdom-powered society. See the sort of punishments that were common for people who tried to organize the serfs in any way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungshar

Just as a side thought... if you look long enough at any country's history, you'll surely find horrors and terrible individuals. But that rarely means that country or its modern descendants would want to be "liberated" by a foreign conquerer, whether that's China or the USA. Forced assimilation is a form of genocide and people would almost always choose to be oppressed by one of their own rather than a foreigner...

Not saying it does, although for note this structure I'm describing was Tibet in the 1940s-50s, so not too far in the past. They guy who did this blinding is the guy who picked the current Dalai Lama

Agree that a regime being "better than" one that existed in the past doesn't justify repression, but also what is "foreign" and what is not is something that is socially constructed and shaped by the passage of time, not objective fact.

For instance, I would not have preferred for the South in the US to be able to secede because "repression by a local is better than foreign Northerners."

Post reply on HN