The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf]

#81

Post by candiddevmike » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 7:57 PM UTC

berg117 wrote: post #71

candiddevmike wrote: post #9

From what I've seen, across the industry, the folks who are burnt out are almost entirely individual contributors. You rarely see burnout in management, and it's typically in the form of folks who want to go back to being ICs/tried management and hated it. I think companies really need to work on reducing or eliminating the amount of bullshit ICs have to deal with vs management (time tracking, status updates, on call…

I've been a manager. Managers burn out all the time. They're just not allowed to show it. They get some degree of exemption from the petty humiliations (time tracking, on-call duty) and they do have human shields to throw in front of a bus or few... but as a middle manager, you're even closer to the truly horrible people up top, and your daily life is consumed by the issues faced by your unluckiest subordinate (somet…

Send me an email sometime (contact info in profile), I like the cut of your jib and would be interested in collaborating with you.

Re: The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf]

#82

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:14 PM UTC

Maximus9000 wrote: post #54

CalRobert wrote: post #37

The world is burning, carbon emissions are increasing despite a global pandemic, democracy is in backslide, and I'm doing stupid shit that really doesn't matter. My children will grow up in a hotter, thirstier, more dangerous world. Nothing I'm doing is going to improve this. My job is cush. I work remote. I make good money. But I stare blankly at the screen and just can't bring myself to care. I eye climatebase and…

There are companies that you could work for that would be win-win. Companies that are making the world better and still require talented software developers.

There are! I've been interviewing with them the last couple weeks. I also have a personal project that I hope helps (meant to help get walking and bike infra built)

Re: The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf]

#83

Post by autokad » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:39 PM UTC

In general, Tech has no respect for people's personal time.

Leetcoding is a problem. we are forced to spend substantial parts of our lives preparing for these coding interviews, and that doesn't cover design, behavioral, and take homes. my brother is a doctor who makes 350k base, you know what an interview is like for him? "do you doctor" "yes I do doctoring" "great come aboard". its problematic that our gatekeepers for roles is guarded by skill sets that have very little to do with our day to day jobs, and that we have to spend our precious personal time prepping for it. this gets amplified by the fact that promotions are so little, the only way to get a real raise is through job hopping.

On call. We should value our personal time, any company/manager that expects you to work during it without at least offering 2x pay for those hours, has no respect for your personal time. you are giving your life away here, so its no wonder why on call is so life draining.

There are more but dont want to go on further

Re: The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf]

#84

Post by apohn » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #20

pmoriarty wrote: post #13

Things contributing to my own (severe) burnout: 1 - Lack of variety, leading to boredom. After decades in the industry, I'm super bored with the things I know, and not in the least bit interested in learning more technical minutia of whatever flavor... pretty much all of it feels the same. The things I'm still interested in (like Scheme) are pretty obscure, so I'm unlikely to ever get to work with them. I hate all th…

> After burning out on tech I really should have switched to another career... or even tried management Just a tip from someone who made that jump: If those five things you listed contributed to your burnout, trust me, moving into management won't help. 1. Management is the same damn slog day after day. You deal with people acting like children, senior management who lack any coherent vision and don't know what they'…

I was a manager at one point, and the combination of #3 and #4 basically killed my interest in management.

As an IC, your manager can tell you to do something that makes no sense. They can either agree with you or disagree about how stupid it is, but if it comes from above it has to be done. As an IC, you just do it and try your best to disconnect emotionally and get it over with.

As a manager, you first listen to your manager tell you to do something that makes no sense. You push back, but they say your team has to do it. You take it to your direct report and they push back, and now you are forcing somebody to work on something they rightfully don't agree it. Unless you are an a$$shole, it's hard to disconnect emotionally when you are forcing somebody to do something you don't agree with. Do that over and over...it really takes a toll.

Re: The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf]

#85

Post by fsociety » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 8:55 PM UTC

autokad wrote: post #83

In general, Tech has no respect for people's personal time. Leetcoding is a problem. we are forced to spend substantial parts of our lives preparing for these coding interviews, and that doesn't cover design, behavioral, and take homes. my brother is a doctor who makes 350k base, you know what an interview is like for him? "do you doctor" "yes I do doctoring" "great come aboard". its problematic that our gatekeepers…

The bar to becoming a doctor is significantly higher than becoming a programmer though. And there are several obligations you have with professional boards on continuing education and remaining sharp in your practice.

I find it hard to agree with the idea that a programmer’s time is respected less than a doctor’s too. How many hours per a week does a doctor work vs programmer? Unless you are experienced and in a cushy private practice, I’d bet the doctor has less freedom with time.

Re: The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf]

#86

Post by fsociety » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #26

End overtime exemption. If an org can push workers for more work without paying them more, why wouldn't they? Solving this problem requires systems-level thinking. Understanding the incentives that result in burnout-creating interactions is key to creating new incentives that don't induce burnout. The quickest way to not fixing burnout is assuming that it is a natural part of software development, that it's up to ind…

It’s a great idea. I bet this would ultimately improve security and reliability/devops organizations at companies too.

Re: The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf]

#87

Post by francisofascii » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:02 PM UTC

fsociety wrote: post #85

autokad wrote: post #83

In general, Tech has no respect for people's personal time. Leetcoding is a problem. we are forced to spend substantial parts of our lives preparing for these coding interviews, and that doesn't cover design, behavioral, and take homes. my brother is a doctor who makes 350k base, you know what an interview is like for him? "do you doctor" "yes I do doctoring" "great come aboard". its problematic that our gatekeepers…

The bar to becoming a doctor is significantly higher than becoming a programmer though. And there are several obligations you have with professional boards on continuing education and remaining sharp in your practice. I find it hard to agree with the idea that a programmer’s time is respected less than a doctor’s too. How many hours per a week does a doctor work vs programmer? Unless you are experienced and in a cush…

You are correct. The time demands of even highly experienced doctors is surprisingly true. I would argue that profession should also be reformed to require less hours.

Re: The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf]

#88

Post by nus07 » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:03 PM UTC

ozzythecat wrote: post #42

I rose to a fairly high rank at Amazon. I was given explicit feedback to not get involved in certain day to day decisions or outcomes. There was immense pressure to disconnect from actual situations and focus mainly on the “goals”… that if you didn’t do that, you weren’t being effective and you were wasting energy, holding yourself back from getting to the next level. My first thought was that this feedback is around…

"It took me some time to piece things together. The reality is that leadership wants senior leaders to stay disconnected. It makes it significantly easier to make decisions you wouldn’t make if you personally knew the people those decisions impact."

-This is something that me as a middle level developer never even thought or considered. Now things make a lot of sense especially the disconnect that leadership often has. This is priceless, thank you !

Re: The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf]

#89

Post by francisofascii » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

Maximus9000 wrote: post #54

CalRobert wrote: post #37

The world is burning, carbon emissions are increasing despite a global pandemic, democracy is in backslide, and I'm doing stupid shit that really doesn't matter. My children will grow up in a hotter, thirstier, more dangerous world. Nothing I'm doing is going to improve this. My job is cush. I work remote. I make good money. But I stare blankly at the screen and just can't bring myself to care. I eye climatebase and…

There are companies that you could work for that would be win-win. Companies that are making the world better and still require talented software developers.

Which industries are you referring? I feel like most industries that have job openings is suspect from a moral perspective.

Re: The state of burnout in tech, 2022 edition [pdf]

#90

Post by apohn » Thu, Mar 03, 2022, 9:08 PM UTC

aqme28 wrote: post #50

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After burning out on tech I really should have switched to another career... or even tried management Just a tip from someone who made that jump: If those five things you listed contributed to your burnout, trust me, moving into management won't help. 1. Management is the same damn slog day after day. You deal with people acting like children, senior management who lack any coherent vision and don't know what they'…

This is another issue though. Nothing burns you out quite like realizing that you don't even want your boss's job. It makes your career feel hopeless.

Honestly, for me this realization made dealing with my job frustrations easier. As an IC in a tech role, I'm paid decently despite not working for FAANG. I don't have to aspire to become a manager just so I can afford my mortgage, family expenses, etc. When all the "extra" and "volunteer" stuff starts getting pushed on me, I don't feel the need to do it so I can "demonstrate performing above my current level" or whatever BS they want to call it.

At one point I worked in a matrixed org that heavily interacted with business analysts, HR people etc. Some of those folks who were desperately trying to climb to a manager role so they could get paid a decent salary. A lot of them hated their jobs, but moving to manager position was their only choice.

Imagine feeling forced to climb to a job that you don't even really want. It's no surprise that people just resort to political maneuvering to get that coveted manager spot.