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Systemd 250 Released

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Re: Systemd 250 Released

#81

Post by trabant00 »

lmm wrote: post #67
sjansen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are: (1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work" (2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work" (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of col…

The thing is, you used to be able to fix something and have it stay fixed. You used to be able to find a config that worked - which, sure, might have required some manual experimentation and customization - but then you could back it up and keep it. Maybe pulseaudio and systemd only breaks 2% of the time rather than 3% of the time. But when they do break, you can't understand what's happened and you can't fix them, a…

> you used to be able to fix something and have it stay fixed

No, I used to patch bash scripts, patch the deb package, deploy to prod, then have to do it all over again when the init script changed upstream in the distribution. Now I just have my configuration management change the options I need in the unit file and never touch it again, so now I sleep while unattended-upgrades works for me.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#82

Post by raverbashing »

trabant00 wrote: post #13

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

More like replace a working system with a more unreliable one with stability problems (and prioritize more features instead of fixing it) and more resource usage, then push for its adoption, then complain when you get hate.

Now yes, it gives you more functionality, but it was a pain until it got there. Systemd was just Pulseaudio all over again (except now in init, so if it breaks your whole system can't boot).

Now, yes. initd is jurassic. Systemd got stable eventually and has gone beyond it. And this is more complicated than it seems. But still, it's the attitude that made things hard.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#83

Post by zodiakzz »

lmm wrote: post #67
sjansen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are: (1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work" (2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work" (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of col…

The thing is, you used to be able to fix something and have it stay fixed. You used to be able to find a config that worked - which, sure, might have required some manual experimentation and customization - but then you could back it up and keep it. Maybe pulseaudio and systemd only breaks 2% of the time rather than 3% of the time. But when they do break, you can't understand what's happened and you can't fix them, a…

Can you elaborate? Systemd also uses text based config files... how did you calculate the "breaks" percentage? I've been using Fedora with Systemd since a few years now. Nothing that broke was Systemd's fault in any way.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#84

Post by sgaduuw »

dschuetz wrote: post #73
sgaduuw wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

genuine question: what's so bad about homed to jump ship? can't you just disable it and not look back?

What do you mean "jump ship"? There are plenty of Linux distributions that still let you choose. Genuine question though: why didn't Lennart and his gang just fork some Linux distribution for their ideas? Why invade everywhere else instead? Anybody ask them that?

It's not like the other distros had a gun pointed at their heads when they chose to adopt systemd.

I still wonder about my original question though. What's so bad about homed?

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#85

Post by foodbag »

trabant00 wrote: post #13

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

Is Lennart/Red Hat meant to be the internet's villain? Perhaps that's the view of a small minority.

I for one am very grateful for Lennart/Red Hat's vast contributions. Leading modern Linux.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#86

Post by starklevnertz »

Mikhail_K wrote: post #48
starklevnertz wrote: post #9

I just want to pre-empt the inevitable bitching about systemd to say I think it’s awesome and incredibly useful and consistent and powerful and I’d take it any day over the mess of stuff that filled systemd’s duties before. Sure it isn’t perfect, but what software is? And let me ask a question, if systemd is crap, why does every major distro use it? If it was truly crap then surely the distro builders would use the a…

> And let me ask a question, if systemd is crap, why does every major distro use it? If Big Mac is a crappy food, why billions are served with it?

No post body was provided.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#87

Post by sjansen »

dschuetz wrote: post #66
sjansen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are: (1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work" (2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work" (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of col…

> (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of collaborating Which goes completely against what Linux stands for - collaboration. The "scripting madness" as you call it was actually completely transparent - if the scripting was bad, you were free to fix it. But now you have to issue a bug report when systemd does something stupid and it's not even your fault…

> Stockholm syndrom much?

Yes, but not how you'd imagine. I spent years as a hard core Linux fanboy. Advocating for Linux. Declaring Linux the future when many thought Windows would obviously eliminate all competition. Volunteering for install fests and wrestling various distros onto unwilling hardware.

I also spent 9 years teaching and writing training materials for RHEL, SUSE, & Ubuntu. As a result I dug deeper into core system details than most. (How many remember SUSE's attempt to achieve faster boot times by introducing an optional alternative to normal init that dynamically generated a makefile to execute init scripts in parallel? That was one of many strange rabbit holes I got to explore.)

Thankfully, I've gotten over it. I still prefer to keep Linux near the center of my career, but I've been able to adapt as "the cloud" has rendered my old school sysadmin skills less relevant. Occasionally I call on them to rescue a pet, but today I find "herding cattle" and going "serverless" much more enjoyable.

And you?

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#88

Post by sgaduuw »

gorgoiler wrote: post #77
sgaduuw wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

could you please elaborate on the new problems?

Take the best coder you know, take their bugs-per-line-of-code rate, and multiply it by 713,364 (systemd *.h *.c)

Since all software has bugs, that doesn't make it a new problem now does it?

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#89

Post by cturner »

pmontra wrote: post #32
teleforce wrote: post #17

This week I have just learned that systemd has an alternative scheduler in addition to cron. At this rate systemd will probably become another new OS on top of Linux similar to Android.

Yesterday I learned that it has its own alternative to NTP: systemd-timesyncd. Quite a big dose of NIH.

Solving integration problems well is often harder than implementing functionality.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#90

Post by guywhocodes »

sjansen wrote: post #47
trabant00 wrote: post #13

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are: (1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work" (2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work" (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of col…

I don't know about (2). Alsa "just worked" when pulse audio was released and PA did not "just work" for like 8 years after the first release.

Seems like software history revisionism to me.

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