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Systemd 250 Released

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Re: Systemd 250 Released

#41

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

You make a valid observation. However I doubt that most Systemd haters are champions of commercial bloat. If I had to generalize, I'd assume that they dislike both.

Yeah, it's about whom to target. Open source overlords are hard to satisfy, to be honest.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#42

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

You make a valid observation. However I doubt that most Systemd haters are champions of commercial bloat. If I had to generalize, I'd assume that they dislike both.

Personally I use Gentoo with OpenRC. It's basically the opposite of bloat.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#43
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Become the internet's villain. This is not about the problems systemd solves, but how they solve them and how they act while solving them.

not to mention the new problems it introduces

The most important of them being flamewars for the past ten years stirred up by those who have nothing better to do.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#44
post #30

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

As someone who has learned Linux/Unix just the past few months using a systemd based distro, I find it a breeze to use. Great documentation, FOSS, and really easy to pick up. I just don’t understand why there is so much dislike thrown around when that energy can be focused elsewhere on truly bad behavior/software. And from my understanding, there are distros out there that don’t use systemd for those who dislike it t…

Disclaimer: I _still_ like systemd.

My only real big pet peeve with Systemd is the documentation is somewhat lacking..., like it's all there in the manual, but its laid out poorly and makes it hard to understand. The interaction between unit files and dependencies is also quite convoluted when you start digging into how things are ordered. There's a ton of unit file options that enable weird conditional behavior. The moment you need to start comprehending the difference between Wants vs. Requires and not hooking into running when multi-user.target is reached (the most common situation) you are in for a world of trial-by-error testing.

Systemd is great for starting simple background services on simple desktop and server environments. It becomes a real pain in the ass once you get beyond that.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#45
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Become the internet's villain. This is not about the problems systemd solves, but how they solve them and how they act while solving them.

not to mention the new problems it introduces

could you please elaborate on the new problems?

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#46
post #6

At this point any system that is running this should not be called "UNIX derived" or "UNIX like" as systemd has subsumed all of the pre-existing architecture around system startup and management. Not arguing if that is a good or bad thing just saying we should stop putting systemd managed systems in the 'UNIX' column just like we don't put Windows NT systems in the UNIX column.

Would anyone care to explain to someone who isn't 1337 in the inner workings of Linux, why systemd makes modern Linux not very UNIXY anymore and why everyone seems to hate it to death?

>Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new "features".

It's a bit of a monolith. People will say it's not, because it's made out of a bunch of smaller components, but when those components are that closely interlinked it stops mattering if they live in different code bases.

It also has a pretty wide scope. PID 1 is responsible for things like dealing with zombie/orphan processes and it's generally a good idea to keep it as minimal as possible, and keep the attack surface as small as possible. Systemd handles things like socket activation, logging, scheduling, etc. It handles all this in more or less one process, which means that when/if that process crashes or has security concerns it's a much bigger deal. It even has it's own docker-equivalent!

Really you want to keep PID 1 as minimal and secure as possible.

>Expect the output of every program to become the input to another, as yet unknown, program. Don't clutter output with extraneous information. Avoid stringently columnar or binary input formats. Don't insist on interactive input.

They've made it hard to work with generic linux tools. For example they have their own custom log format that isn't text based. This means that linux tools like find or grep won't work on systemd logs. Generally systemd has replacements for those tools, like you can still grep but you've got to learn the specific systemd ways of actually getting the output and all that (note that a lot of distros seem to ignore systemd's logging provisions and just log to files like normal, for a bunch of stuff).

It's pretty complicated to reason about, one "unit" can be a bunch of different files spread out all over the filesystem, and it can be hard to get a good view of all the aspects that effect a unit without resorting to systemd-specific tools to figure out the relationships between things. For example if you want to edit a unit file the suggested way to edit a unit file is with something like `sudo systemctl edit ssh` or possible `sudo systemctl edit ssh --full` depending on the situation. Spreading files all over the place like that sort of betrays their enterprise roots, it makes some sense when you're working with very large teams but just having all the until files in one location (/etc/init.d) would be a lot more readable and manageable. Also having one file per unit, instead of having to have separate file for units and their dependencies (things like sockets) would be nice.

Another problem is that they broke chroot, which makes dealing with embedded systems that use systemd a pain if you're not using a systemd based host to develop on. They sort of force you to use systemd's docker equivalent instead of the more common chroot if you're dealing with systemd-based embedded systems. That means you'd better be running a systemd based host system as well.

---

Also I think some of us feel like it's being forced on us. Redhat/IBM funds or has control over a lot of the unix ecosystem, so when we see things like Gnome not working on BSD any more because it has a hard dependency on systemd, well it starts to look like an intentional.

Things like the systemd decision to randomly kill off screen/tmux sessions on user logout leave a really bad taste in some people's mouth. Honestly a fair bit of the dislike is just repeated instances like that, and repeatedly ignoring feedback as to why that's actually a pretty big problem, and generally being unwilling to compromise with the broader community.

https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/4ldewx/systemd...

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#47

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are:

(1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work"

(2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work"

(3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of collaborating

It amazes me that the same person was responsible for leading 2 of the 3 changes.

I for one welcome an increasingly unified operating system core, instead of the random competing and overlapping components we used to have. Sure they worked 97% of the time, but the other 3% when they didn't could be a royal PITA. Especially when two waring components wasted time pointing blame at each other instead of focusing on solving end user issues.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#48

I just want to pre-empt the inevitable bitching about systemd to say I think it’s awesome and incredibly useful and consistent and powerful and I’d take it any day over the mess of stuff that filled systemd’s duties before. Sure it isn’t perfect, but what software is? And let me ask a question, if systemd is crap, why does every major distro use it? If it was truly crap then surely the distro builders would use the a…

> And let me ask a question, if systemd is crap, why does every major distro use it?

If Big Mac is a crappy food, why billions are served with it?

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#49
I'm curious if it's still falling back to Google DNS / NTP if not otherwise configured. That was a very bad choice even though I understand it'll only kick in under unusual circumstances.
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