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Systemd 250 Released

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Re: Systemd 250 Released

#21

Post by lbotos »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #14
ChuckMcM wrote: post #6

At this point any system that is running this should not be called "UNIX derived" or "UNIX like" as systemd has subsumed all of the pre-existing architecture around system startup and management. Not arguing if that is a good or bad thing just saying we should stop putting systemd managed systems in the 'UNIX' column just like we don't put Windows NT systems in the UNIX column.

Would anyone care to explain to someone who isn't 1337 in the inner workings of Linux, why systemd makes modern Linux not very UNIXY anymore and why everyone seems to hate it to death?

Linux via Unix: Do one thing, and do it well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy

Systemd: Not that.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29670980 for an example.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#23

Post by ddingus »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #14
ChuckMcM wrote: post #6

At this point any system that is running this should not be called "UNIX derived" or "UNIX like" as systemd has subsumed all of the pre-existing architecture around system startup and management. Not arguing if that is a good or bad thing just saying we should stop putting systemd managed systems in the 'UNIX' column just like we don't put Windows NT systems in the UNIX column.

Would anyone care to explain to someone who isn't 1337 in the inner workings of Linux, why systemd makes modern Linux not very UNIXY anymore and why everyone seems to hate it to death?

Basically, systemd is a big binary that manages the system.

That used to be many discrete programs and shell scripts and files.

There is a lot of philosophy to consider from there.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#24

Post by ggm »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #14
ChuckMcM wrote: post #6

At this point any system that is running this should not be called "UNIX derived" or "UNIX like" as systemd has subsumed all of the pre-existing architecture around system startup and management. Not arguing if that is a good or bad thing just saying we should stop putting systemd managed systems in the 'UNIX' column just like we don't put Windows NT systems in the UNIX column.

Would anyone care to explain to someone who isn't 1337 in the inner workings of Linux, why systemd makes modern Linux not very UNIXY anymore and why everyone seems to hate it to death?

It used to be process 1 was init, and it forked/exec'd everything else typically from /etc/rc (this elides over a lot) -its the first binary the kernel runs. Everything else stems from the birth of user process number 1.

Fork/exec is the lightweight process inheriting of open i/o and memory state with copy-on-write which made Unix a joy to work with. It's a delightful mapping of kernel and userspace into complex inherited tree of processes sharing that origin state (or not. You can close it all down, change things.)

systemd is a complex mega binary which parses control files and subsumes several functions. It's big. It's not small like init. It's not fork/exec simple it forks control processes and monitors children and does a lot of work some daemons did themselves (getty, inetd) but others didn't do. And you get to monitor things. It's not unlike launchctl on OSX or other platforms. And after all /etc/rc is now 5 or more/etc/rcX.d/ complex substates of states to look for scripts, SAT solver complex dependency stuff between semi arcane shellscripts... blah.

PRO: everything is now much more consistent

CON: greybeards like me hate it (beardless btw but meh) because it's complex

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#26

Post by theteapot »

trabant00 wrote: post #13

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

systemd is a cuckoo bird that found the perfect nest, init. Not-a-hero.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#27

Post by bayindirh »

trabant00 wrote: post #13

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

> Become the internet's villain.

This is not about the problems systemd solves, but how they solve them and how they act while solving them.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#28

Post by davydm »

bayindirh wrote: post #27
trabant00 wrote: post #13

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

> Become the internet's villain. This is not about the problems systemd solves, but how they solve them and how they act while solving them.

not to mention the new problems it introduces

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#29

Post by 3np » 

  systemd-networkd will now automatically configure routes to addresses specified in AllowedIPs=. This feature can be controlled via RouteTable= and RouteMetric= settings in [WireGuard] or [WireGuardPeer] sections.
Wow, that’s a pretty significant breaking change that I’m surprised to see (and one I don’t really agree with; there was reasoning behind not doing that in the first place). This is going to bite most users already using the WG functionality if they don’t realize when upgrading.

I really hope apt will notify users about this when upgrading.

  sd-boot gained the ability to change screen resolution during boot-time, by hitting the "r" key. This will cycle through available resolutions and save the last selection.
Neat!

Overall I learned to stop worrying and love the systemd, especially systemd-networkd. The maintainers can be impressively responsive in acknowledging and fixing reported issues.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#30

Post by 42jd »

trabant00 wrote: post #13

Work hard and solve a big, complex set of problems. Solve them well. Offer the solution as free open source. Work some more to offer extra functionality and fix the bugs. Become the internet's villain. Come up with a commercial solution to a simple problem. Ex: file sharing or password management. Make it slow, insecure, privacy violating, lose people's data. Make millions, become a hero.

As someone who has learned Linux/Unix just the past few months using a systemd based distro, I find it a breeze to use. Great documentation, FOSS, and really easy to pick up. I just don’t understand why there is so much dislike thrown around when that energy can be focused elsewhere on truly bad behavior/software. And from my understanding, there are distros out there that don’t use systemd for those who dislike it that much. It’s really perplexing to me as someone newer to the community.
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