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Re: undefined

#81

Post by jsjohnst »

jacquesm wrote: post #64
sneak wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dumbphones have the exact same problem, due to carrier-based location tracking tied to phone number.

Not nearly to the same degree of confidence/precision and without easy access by Google/Apple/Facebook/Advertising networks to this data.

For someone as active on HN as you, I’m surprised you don’t know of the numerous stories in the past about carriers selling location data to advertising networks and the numerous cases where the raw data has leaked publicly via careless aggregators[0]. Like even Congress got fired up on it at the time because of leaks, but you can be assured it’s still happening[2] despite claims otherwise.

As to the precision argument, US cell carriers can locate you to within 150ft easily in a city / populated area (and are required to be able to by the FCC[1]). They don’t just depend on multiple tower triangulation, but use much more advanced techniques (can provide sources if asked). Back in 2017 multiple carriers were demonstrating to my then employer how they could generally even determine what floor you were on in a building within a range of 4-5 floors. Apparently now the FCC mandates it to be within 10ft[1] vertical accuracy now in the top 25 markets.

The same PRS system that tracks a UEs precise location for E911 / law enforcement / government use / etc is also used on tracking the general usage of any customer of the carriers all the time.

[0] one story among many from back then: https://www.engadget.com/2018-06-19-verizon-stop-selling-cus...

[1] https://www.fcc.gov/public-safety-and-homeland-security/poli...

[2] https://www.locationsmart.com/

Re: undefined

#82

Post by jsjohnst »

noizejoy wrote: post #80
Gigachad wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are accurate to the tower which is far too accurate for comfort.

Possibly more accurate, due to triangulation between multiple towers.

Way way more accurate than to the tower, even more accurate than just using triangulation alone these days.

Re: undefined

#83

Post by Consultant32452 »

Gigachad wrote: post #67
eurasiantiger wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source radios are the first step to privacy. We need to be able to choose the towers we connect to.

The _only_ possible solution to this problem is government regulation. An open source radio on your phone does literally nothing when the phone networks are all hostile.

Government regulation created your lack of options.

These are the people who have been giving literally trillions of dollars to the wealthy in their spending bills.

What would they have to do to convince you they are not going to help you?

Re: undefined

#85

Post by seanp2k2 »

throwawayboise wrote: post #65
eurasiantiger wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source radios are the first step to privacy. We need to be able to choose the towers we connect to.

If you're really worried about this the only thing you can really do is not carry a phone, or carry one with a hardware radio switch and only turn it on when you want to use it. Of course you won't receive calls or messages, but that's not the end of the world, it's just like going back to the 1980s.

RFID blocking pocket is another option, or rotate prepaid cellphones every week or so. Neither is very convenient.

Re: undefined

#86

Post by ClumsyPilot »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #83
Gigachad wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The _only_ possible solution to this problem is government regulation. An open source radio on your phone does literally nothing when the phone networks are all hostile.

Government regulation created your lack of options. These are the people who have been giving literally trillions of dollars to the wealthy in their spending bills. What would they have to do to convince you they are not going to help you?

It's always regulation to blame to some folks. If only we could have more 'free market' somehow companies would no longer spy on their customers.

Re: undefined

#87

Post by ClumsyPilot »

the_only_law wrote: post #58
eurasiantiger wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source radios are the first step to privacy. We need to be able to choose the towers we connect to.

I've had fleeting interests in this area for a while now, but for a number of reasons have never managed to do much in it. The standards are all open right, for modern mobile networks. Every time I see this topic come up there seems to be something about patents and entrenched oligopolies (i.e with Qualcomm). Is there any legal or IP issues raised from making open source modems for LTE/4G/5G/whatever networks.

Hardware isn't the problem, spectrum licences are the issue

Re: undefined

#88

Post by Consultant32452 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #86
Consultant32452 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government regulation created your lack of options. These are the people who have been giving literally trillions of dollars to the wealthy in their spending bills. What would they have to do to convince you they are not going to help you?

It's always regulation to blame to some folks. If only we could have more 'free market' somehow companies would no longer spy on their customers.

I suggest you keep trying the same thing you've been trying to see if you can get some different results.

Re: undefined

#89

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

jsjohnst wrote: post #81
jacquesm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not nearly to the same degree of confidence/precision and without easy access by Google/Apple/Facebook/Advertising networks to this data.

For someone as active on HN as you, I’m surprised you don’t know of the numerous stories in the past about carriers selling location data to advertising networks and the numerous cases where the raw data has leaked publicly via careless aggregators[0]. Like even Congress got fired up on it at the time because of leaks, but you can be assured it’s still happening[2] despite claims otherwise. As to the precision argume…

I wonder if it’s actually possible to prevent fingerprinting of a radio transmitter (aside from active measures like intentionally sending out noise broadcasts periodically): it seems to me that a clever enough adversary with two or three receivers could fingerprint all the devices in the area based on transmission patterns and locate/identify individuals. Combined with CCTV or other data, this could even be sufficient to pinpoint irl identities.

Re: undefined

#90

Post by mleonhard »

sys_64738 wrote: post #28

How does data get off my smartphone? * Apps * Carrier geolocation * Bluetooth tracking Are there any others? If I disable location tracking then am I safe? I don't install crappy vendor apps on my smartphone to begin with.

IP address.

Most people connect to wifi at home and at work. Every app on your phone reports your current IP address. Even if you don't open an app, the app server can send it a silent push notification which wakes up the app and lets it send back your current IP address. Therefore every app knows where you live and work and when you are at those places. If you connect to wifi at friends' places or coffee shops or a hotel, they get that data, too.

This is missing from the article. It is a major omission.

iOS & Android could help reduce IP-address tracking. They could treat Internet Access as a privacy setting: require apps to ask for permission and let the user control when the app communicates (never, when in use, always). One can disable app notifications to reduce app wake-ups, but the OS does not teach users about this. Notifications are not listed under "Privacy". Also, apps can use other ways to wake up frequently and report the current IP address.

Additionally, iOS & Android could support hermetic proxy services. Currently, one can install a VPN app on iOS, but device traffic goes through the VPN only when the app is running and connected. All apps get direct access to the network (and your IP address) whenever the VPN connection is not enabled, which occurs during device restarts, VPN service outages, VPN app updates, and when switching between mobile & wifi. iOS has the ability to disable network access when the VPN is down, but setting it up is a complicated procedure which requires using a macOS device and wiping the iOS device. And there's no emergency-disable option.

Both Apple and Google ignore many easy things they could do to improve user privacy.

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