Live data from Hacker News

Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

vice.com

81–90 of 124 posts

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#81

> When your stuff breaks, you should be able to fix it yourself. This concept is inherently flawed. These complex devices were built by teams of highly skilled and specialized engineers. The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated. I grew up on a cattle ranch, and we had lots of tractors and equipment -- some of it over 100 years old. I rebuilt an International Farmall…

I'm pretty in favor of right-to-repair, but I came here to see if any one had good reasons for not having right-to-repair (or limiting it). Thanks for providing this alternative view point!

It probably doesn't apply to phones, but the liability is an interesting question, especially for equipment with a lifetime of decades.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#82
post #31
post #8

I was re-reading (ok, actually trying to finish yet again) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and I think some of what Pirsig says at the beginning of the book applies here. Namely, the division between people who just want things to work and hope "somebody" else will step in when a fix is needed, and those who understand the abstraction sometimes leaks, and you need to be able to dig in and at least know how…

Just wondering: if there was a 'right to repair' on computers in the 60's, would Intel have made an integrated microprocessor? I mean: you can't just fix a dead register by replacing it anymore... Lots of electronics have become more reliable by being fully integrated units. I prefer a durable phone to a repairable phone that needs constant replacements.

No, but Intel should offer replacement parts for a reasonable time for what can be replaced. I don't know if RAM slots or a BIOS ROM chip are actually resolderable, but if they are then those parts should be offered for example.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#83
post #38

> Connecticut, Colorado, Delaware, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Washington state are all considering broad [right-to-repair] laws that would apply to most of the stuff we use everyday. Meanwhile, in Sacramento, it is illegal to repair your own car at your own home. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26421495

This is a bit misleading. The Sacramento regulation appears to be about zoning to dissuade commercial repair operations on residential grounds. This is bad, but is not really "anti repair" any more than not being allowed to operate a bar/food service business out of your own home.

[deleted]

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#84

> When your stuff breaks, you should be able to fix it yourself. This concept is inherently flawed. These complex devices were built by teams of highly skilled and specialized engineers. The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated. I grew up on a cattle ranch, and we had lots of tractors and equipment -- some of it over 100 years old. I rebuilt an International Farmall…

> The concept that you should be able to repair it with a screwdriver and a 6-pack is outdated.

I agree. But no one asks for that.

It is my understanding that the "right to repair" initiative, as presented by Louis Rossmann, only asks that the people who are willing to do the repair themselves are able to get the replacement parts, the tools (e.g. custom screwdrivers, flash programmers ...) and the expertise (e.g. schematics, binary or API specifications, ...) necessary to perform it. It does not ask that the repair should require no skills.

> and at some point it just doesn't scale

To the best of my knowledge, the mentioned "right to repair" initiative does not ask that it should be possible to e.g. repair a tractor using only bike shop tools. It merely asks that an independent tractor repair shop should be able to do it. And for that it would need parts, tools and expertise to be available.

> it's pretty risky

Yes. If repairs are performed without proper parts, without proper tools and without proper expertise, they are risky. That is also one of the reasons why the right to repair asks for those to be available.

===

There is an argument that limiting the availability of parts, tools and expertise would limit the number of people attempting to perform the repairs. That would, in theory, in turn limit the number of people that would perform those repairs without the necessary skills, which might potentially be dangerous to the customers.

However, I am not sure if such limiting measures, when applied, have the desired outcome. I think that the demand for repairs is primarily driven by the rate at which the particular kind of devices need it. It is not going to magically go down just because parts, tools and expertise are unavailable.

Consider the availability of schematics for MacBooks, for example. They are not available officially. But it is possible to get them via shady channels. The operation of such channels is risky because it is often illegal. But it is nevertheless being done because there is a large demand for it.

That is why I think that limiting the availability of parts, tools and expertise would not have the desired effect of less people attempting the repairs. It seems more likely to me that the number of people who would be attempting the repairs would remain roughly the same. But since the parts, tools and expertise would be coming via shady channels, they may not be of the sufficient quality. As a result, even some of the people who have the sufficient skills would not be able to provide the repairs of the high-enough quality to be indistinguishable from the repairs provided by the manufacturer.

Therefore, I think that such availability-limiting measures make sub-optimal repairs more frequent, which is exactly the opposite of the goal they are trying to achieve.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#85
post #8

I was re-reading (ok, actually trying to finish yet again) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and I think some of what Pirsig says at the beginning of the book applies here. Namely, the division between people who just want things to work and hope "somebody" else will step in when a fix is needed, and those who understand the abstraction sometimes leaks, and you need to be able to dig in and at least know how…

The thing is even if people don't wanna repair themselves they might wanna change a battery. Or get something minor done cheaply by a 3rd party. But Apple goes so far out of the way to kill third party repair. They even put special screws in their machines to screw you. Edit: The EU pushed right to repair, right? Now see what Apple did to screw France [1]. Their latest and greatest devices somehow have a repairabilit…

I love the right to repair and also Apple products. I have seen over the years how they have struggled back and forth with the line between what they want to allow customers to do and what they want to do. Sometimes I'm disappointed by their decisions. Many times I am impressed with how they handle themselves.

They have fixed multiple out of warranty problems for free or for parts-only, where other companies would have charged much more to do so. I think they don't flaunt this customer service because they don't want people to take it for granted, and they don't want to attract the type of customer that would abuse the policy.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#86
post #14
post #11

I worked on an old Honda Odyssey that I bought used from a friend for $100. It took at least $2000 in parts but I could find all the parts on RockAuto.com (The site is ugly but functional). Just like cars, in the long-run, I think bringing products to market which are repairable will help create trust between manufacturer and end-user. In fact, the resale value of an older item depends on the affordability of the rep…

Unfortunately, Tesla is starting to build their battery packs in-frame so it'll become harder to repair. https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack...

This is so backwards. If they want electric cars to dominate, they need interchangeable, standardized batteries that can be swapped out by machines at gas stations just like stopping for gas. You'll never have batteries that charge quickly enough for a cross-country trip and have range.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#87
post #58

I remember back when I was young opening up an older stereo my parents had and right inside was the schematic and wiring diagram for the whole machine. My father had a shop manual for his 1962 Ford Thunderbird and not only did it tell you how to fix it but it also showed how to make any needed "special tools" for the car. I am not saying every single thing in the world is going to be user serviced...but it is a shame…

> f we continue to allow qualified users to be stifled by DRM for the sake of increasing profits through planned obsolecence we are going to see greatly increased levels of ecological damage and waste.

Waste is one concern but there is also a hidden cost. Every curious person that we prevent from opening up or fixing their machine contributes to a net loss of innovation in the long run.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#88
post #87
post #58

I remember back when I was young opening up an older stereo my parents had and right inside was the schematic and wiring diagram for the whole machine. My father had a shop manual for his 1962 Ford Thunderbird and not only did it tell you how to fix it but it also showed how to make any needed "special tools" for the car. I am not saying every single thing in the world is going to be user serviced...but it is a shame…

> f we continue to allow qualified users to be stifled by DRM for the sake of increasing profits through planned obsolecence we are going to see greatly increased levels of ecological damage and waste. Waste is one concern but there is also a hidden cost. Every curious person that we prevent from opening up or fixing their machine contributes to a net loss of innovation in the long run.

For me, that’s a stronger point. Nicely said.

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#89
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A real shame since electric cars are extremely simple. There’s not a panoply of different parts that slowly wear out and need to be troubleshooted separately and replaced at different times. It’s basically the battery pack and brakes.

There are suspension systems, heating/AC, doors, sunroofs, motors controlling windows and doors, sealants around the same, lights, infotainment systems, seats and seat controls and motors controlling these, power steering, heat pumps, multiple cameras (each of which can fail), huge numbers of sensors (including radar), as well as wiring between the cameras and sensors and all other other components, differentials, br…

No oil changes, water pump, fuel pump, valves, spark plugs, radiator, alternator, starter, ignition system, oxygen sensors, etc. The amount of parts that go into a functioning internal combustion engine is quite staggering.

The unfortunate part of this is that ICE cars are effectively trashed once the engine seizes. Replacing the engine is almost always more expensive than replacing the car, and many things can still wear out once the engine is replaced.

If you look at the 10k, 50k, 100k maintenance on EVs is almost a joke[1].

1. https://www.myev.com/research/ev-101/what-does-it-take-to-ma...

Re: Right to Repair Gaining Momentum

#90
post #57

Should software companies give access to source code so that users can fix bugs?

This, I believe, was the original driver for Richard Stallman to start the GNU project.

The story I heard him tell was about two printers at MIT.

An old one with source code available which they were able to upgrade with many new network features.

The other a modern one with better performance but closed source software.

Stallman actually found out that a colleague had been given access to the source code but told explicitly not to allow other MIT staff to see it.

That infuriated him enough to create the Free Software movement.

Post reply on HN