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Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

bbc.com

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Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#81

Post by unityByFreedom »

cambalache wrote: post #36
42_ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard of evidence for a country with free press cannot and should not be compared to the standard of evidence for a country with no press freedom. China controls flow of information so tightly, that even rumours should be considered credible unless proven otherwise.

Free press is a nebulous concept, especially considering that for all but the most naive or disingenuous person the mass media press is an indirect tool of the intelligence services of each country. > China controls flow of information so tightly, that even rumours should be considered credible unless proven otherwise. You could say exactly the same about the military occupation of every country, or are we getting th…

It isn't nebulous. In China you and your family disappear if you criticize the CCP, even if you do so while overseas. Elsewhere you may speak your mind without fear of being locked up or killed.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#82

Post by [deleted] »

ahelwer wrote: post #47
seattle_spring wrote: post #22

I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.

How exactly are you approaching this conversation with your Chinese coworkers?

[deleted]

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#83

Post by fileyfood500 »

_-david-_ wrote: post #65
nashashmi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the Holocaust was happening, no one cared. The holocaust was stopped because it aligned with a different interest: to stop nazi Germany. The holocaust was only to make the nazi look bad. Otherwise no one cared about Jews either.

Most people did not know about the Holocaust until after WW2 started.

FDR/senior government and military officials in the US army knew. They made choices to focus on American interests at multiple points, even as they closed on victory on the European front, they prioritized strategic targets over concentration camps. The USSR ended up being the one to free most of the camps, and conquer most of Germany. Strategic targets are definitely important for protecting soldiers, but really the point here is that the military leaders were aware, and the fact the soldiers were surprised/shocked is a result of them not being informed and/or it being a shocking thing to see even when you know it’s coming.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#85

Post by phantomathkg »

exporectomy wrote: post #57

I had no idea genocide included destroying a culture without killing the people who belong to it. Eg. by adoption, sterilization, indoctrination, punishment for practicing it, etc. Genocide seems like a misleading word here when typical cases are population-scale killings. But if that's the definition the UK government uses, then they have to be consistent.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

Article II b: Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Article II d: Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#86

Post by phantomathkg »

Leary wrote: post #38

How many people have died in this so called genocide?

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

Article II b: Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Article II d: Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#87

Post by 789420 »

Asking since most of the people in this thread are taking it as a given: what is the strongest evidence pointing to the fact that China is carrying out a genocide?

For example, I've been fairly bothered by the consistent citing of unreliable sources for the Tiananmen square death counts (ie. that British cable that cited 10k+).

Lots of people seem to be calling any deviation from the "accepted" line to be "brainwashed", Winnie the Pooh jokes, etc.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#88

Post by meowface »

refenestrator wrote: post #78
newacct583 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The... single greatest? Not the great empire builders? Not the USSR? Modern China, really? Not even, y'know, the ancient chinese empires who subjugated most of asia? The PRC? I mean, just objectively modern chinese citizens, while they certainly don't live under western-level protection for expression, are (owing just to technology and nothing less) vastly more able to share their opinions widely and securely than...…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap

>The Thucydides Trap, also referred to as Thucydides's Trap, is a term popularized by American political scientist Graham T. Allison to describe an apparent tendency towards war when an emerging power threatens to displace an existing great power as the international hegemon. It was coined and is primarily used to describe a potential conflict between the United States and the People's Republic of China.

One shouldn't lump all antagonism towards a government together as a single thing.

You can live in China, think the US government has a history of war crimes, subjugation, imperialism, plunder, genocide, and geopolitical treachery, and yet not want to go to war with the US.

You can live in the US, think the Chinese government is engaging in genocide and creating an uniquely dystopian surveillance state where all thought and behavior can be monitored and shaped, and yet not want to go to war with China.

I'm sure this trap is a real phenomenon, but pretty much every large human empire has been powered by a helm regularly committing horrible atrocities, so one hegemon will probably always be able to legitimately condemn a up-and-comer, and vice versa.

I think it can be a bit dangerous to counter such discussion with accusations of war-seeking, because it lets rulers get away with more than they should. At least unless you have specific evidence suggesting the discussion isn't simply a case of people who are genuinely concerned about people for humanist reasons.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#89

Post by redm »

I think the most shocking part of that article was the Chinese response. I can imagine a similar response from Nazi Germany.

--

"Some anti-China forces in the West have concocted and disseminated plenty of false information about Xinjiang and fabricated "lies of the century" in various forms," the embassy said. "They have smeared China's image and slandered its policies on Xinjiang." It added: "Anyone who is fair-minded can see that the true intent of those forces is to suppress and contain China's development... Their moves are driven by a Cold War mentality, hegemonic worldview and zero-sum game mindset. China will never allow such farce and vicious demonization to succeed. Lies may mislead people for a while, but cannot win the trust of the world. Facts and truth will eventually bust all lies."

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#90

Post by Aunche »

vivekpandian wrote: post #30
seattle_spring wrote: post #22

I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.

No use in trying to discuss this anyone from China. They are totally brainwashed. In Spite of, living in USA and enjoying democracy, and free of speech, they think freedom of speech is myth and democracy is not a reliable form of government. They believe that Winnie, the pooh is great and he and CCP is solely responsible for lifting millions of Chinese people from poverty. I really feel pity for the Chinese people.

You're doing yourself a disservice if you think Chinese people are all brainwashed simpletons. The reality is that people will rationalize anything that benefits them, and Xinjiang is an integral part of One Belt One Road.
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