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California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

reuters.com

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Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#81

Post by wtvanhest »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

Private prisons are an easy scapegoat to a much larger problem. In my opinion ending private prisons just removes a tool that politicians can use to avoid responsibility, so in that way, ending their practice is net good.

There are 2 problems with prisons in the United States: 1) There are way too many people in US prisons. We have the highest prison population in the world by percentage and total numbers of any country. That is a metric you don't want to win at.

2) The conditions are absolutely horrifying.

To solve the first problem, you need to do obvious things like eliminate mandatory minimums. But you also need to do less obvious things like reduce overall sentencing across all crimes. You also need to reduce or eliminate prison sentences for most non-violent offenders. We also need to put in place better negotiating power for accused people so that the innocent don't have to take plea bargains (basically we need more fair trials).

The second problem can be solved in a number of ways, but the big thing that is missing is oversight from groups unrelated to the prison who are responsible for metrics. Imagine you have centralized offices where people watch video in prisons remotely and bring charges against people on this inside or implement policies. Those people would have to be completely isolated from the guards/wardens etc. of those prisons. Imagine they sit in a central office in Houston or whatever and watch prisons in Montana, California etc. What prisons need is a set of eyes that can be truly impartial.

It is great that the discussion are becoming mainstream, but we have so far to go in this country. Its truly astounding.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#82

Post by hellisothers »

flatline wrote: post #53
thebean11 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, private prisons are a moral hazard by nature. Pointing out a separate failure by state prisons is a straw man I think.

The operator of the first private prison in the US came to speak at a class of mine back in the 90s. They provided a minimum-security facility in an old hotel in Denver. The owner was very sincere, they honestly believed that they could provide a better experience for the prisoners, and they did. The focus was actually on rehabilitation, they were able to relax a lot of the rules for good prisoners that state and fed…

The problem is profit motive which is what drives private industry and is why some things should generally be divorced from making a profit. Same for charter schools. And it’s a moral hazard because it’s “hazardous”, it creates the possibility for danger but doesn’t require it so in that sense it is exactly a moral hazard.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#83

Post by AlexandrB »

catalogia wrote: post #55
sdenton4 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At risk of godwinning, by this logic the US should never have taken in all those Jewish scientists fleeing Nazi Germany... Or any of the many, many incredible Iranians I've known and worked with in my life. Often the best people are fleeing intolerable conditions. btw, the Open Borders graphic novel is fantastic: https://www.smbc-comics.com/openborders/

One could surmise that provisions for refugees would be an exception case augmenting a more general border policy. As is the case in the EU, I believe?

The inconvenient truth is that many illegal immigrants from South America are refugees from various US-backed coups, dictatorships, and war-on-drugs fuelled drug cartels. Unfortunately they can't always claim refugee status on these grounds.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f...

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#84

Post by clairity »

catalogia wrote: post #67
clairity wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many of us consider southern califoria part of the southwest, but not so much the central and northern parts. similarly with texas, the southwestern parts, less so with the rest. that's because that's what borders mexico, and we have a politico-cultural fascination with that border in particular.

To me, "southwest" is sand and cactuses. San Francisco isn't the southwest because it doesn't have that sort of climate. Also because 37°N doesn't seem meaningfully "south" relative to the continental US as a whole. I don't think it has much to do with Mexico. Nevada (well, Las Vegas anyway) seems the "southwest" to me, and Nevada has no border with Mexico.

sure, that might be the picture that pops into our heads, but the reason we think about the southwest as a thing at all is not because we all love the desert.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#85

Post by AlexandrB »

bluntfang wrote: post #62
lm28469 wrote: post #38

There seem to be plenty of comments that are OK with private prisons. I highly recommend watching this documentary: https://youtu.be/krfcq5pF8u8 It will most likely change your mind.

>There seem to be plenty of comments that are OK with private prisons Can anyone help me understand their stance? I can see being pro-prison in general, but why pro-private prison? It's not like this specific ask is for removing all prisons.

Best I can gather is: "free enterprise is good, government is bad".

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#87

Post by mason55 »

dahfizz wrote: post #63
Gustomaximus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesnt have to be. Why don't they do something like pay private prisons the bare minimum per diem but then offer a trailing commission for every year an ex-con is out of jail past a certain date. Do the statistics for average time to return to prison, and pay them a bonus every year a prisoner is over that average date for 10 years type thing. So jails make little money for the incarceration but earn profits from…

What could also make sense is paying the prison a lump sum for the convict instead of a per diem. This changes the incentive structure from keeping people locked up as long as possible to rehabilitating and releasing them as fast as possible.

I don't see where the incentive to rehabilitate is? They're just incentivized to release them ASAP so they spend as little as possible.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#88

Post by opo »

ogre_codes wrote: post #32
fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

Private prisons have a financial incentive to detain inmates for as long as possible. The prison has some input into when a detainee is released (good behavior, etc) and private prisons have been observed abusing this power. Private prisons also have incentives to find ways to cut costs and often do so in ways which harm detainees. Private prisons also have incentive to lobby for longer mandatory prison terms regardl…

The government run prisons in CA are worse than the private prisons they closed. The prisons in CA are so bad, the federal government actually took over oversight of the medical care as they failed to provide a constitutional level of medical care to its prisoners:

>... US District Court Judge Thelton Henderson said he was “driven in large measure by the stunning testimony that was uncontroverted that a prisoner in one of California's 32 prisons dies on average every 6 or 7 days as a result of malpractice, negligence, or some other deficiency in the State's medical care delivery system.”

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS014067...

As fennecfoxen pointed out they also did things like forced sterilizations.

The real problem is that we spend many billions on a prison industrial complex and there are many public sector unions, contractors, builders, etc who profit from it. The political contributions of the CA prison guard union are obviously not being done to lower the number of prison guard positions. As wikipedia says "...The CCPOA is widely considered one of the most powerful political forces in California politics. ... Lobbying efforts and campaign contributions by the CCPOA have helped secure passage of numerous legislative bills favorable to union members, including bills that increase prison terms, member pay, and enforce current drug laws."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_...

This isn't to say that CA prisons are the worst in the country - likely other state's prisons are just as bad as CA. When you have the people regulating a system be the same people who are running the system, you really can't expect things to be that good.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#89

Post by jolmg »

klipt wrote: post #10
gyrgtyn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hospitality

If we're going to have free movement it should probably be via a proper agreement, like in the EU. Not a mishmash of contradictory state and federal policies. And it should be mutual - if Mexicans and Canadians can live in the US, Americans should be freely allowed to live in Mexico and Canada.

> Americans should be freely allowed to live in Mexico

I think they effectively already are.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#90

Post by tathougies »

sdenton4 wrote: post #27
tathougies wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should also have standards like the European Union. And one of those standards should be that any country participating should not be run by warlords.

At risk of godwinning, by this logic the US should never have taken in all those Jewish scientists fleeing Nazi Germany... Or any of the many, many incredible Iranians I've known and worked with in my life. Often the best people are fleeing intolerable conditions. btw, the Open Borders graphic novel is fantastic: https://www.smbc-comics.com/openborders/

Oh no, we can take mexicans in of course, we just should't have open borders. I would hope that, when the US took in Jewish scientists, there was a mechanism in place to make sure they didn't take nazis disguised as jewish scientists.
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