Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#81

Post by L_Rahman » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #51

blululu wrote: post #49

There are plenty of examples where unions can be a constructive force in securing good working conditions while promoting good business practices. Given the poor reputation of video game development work this could be a really positive development. That being said, the last time I had a unionized job I was pretty disappointed with the results. They consistently failed to secure cost of living adjustments, and the one…

USA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to unions. In theory they are great, but in practice they get implemented really poorly. I think we need to examine how other countries do unions because I agree, the one union I was in for a short time (teachers' union in California - I was basically forced to join even though the job was only temporary) felt like a ball and chain around my ankle taking a cut of my pay…

Public sector unions are a completely different ball game than private sector unions.

I whole heartedly believe in worker organization and believe that tech workers should unionize, but it is also true that in a lot of different pieces of this country public sector unionization has been an unmitigated disaster.

In any niche of our society that is not legible to the average person, public sector unions + the morass that is local politics in the US creates a downward spiral between public sector union workers and the politicians they bring into power.

The subway in NYC for example is broken for a number of reasons, but high on that list are the efforts of the transit worker union to block improvements in operational performance and their lobbying for Andrew Cuomo who might be one of the most transit hating governors in the last 100 years of New York politics.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#82

Post by ars » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #51

blululu wrote: post #49

There are plenty of examples where unions can be a constructive force in securing good working conditions while promoting good business practices. Given the poor reputation of video game development work this could be a really positive development. That being said, the last time I had a unionized job I was pretty disappointed with the results. They consistently failed to secure cost of living adjustments, and the one…

USA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to unions. In theory they are great, but in practice they get implemented really poorly. I think we need to examine how other countries do unions because I agree, the one union I was in for a short time (teachers' union in California - I was basically forced to join even though the job was only temporary) felt like a ball and chain around my ankle taking a cut of my pay…

> we need to examine how other countries do unions

The biggest difference is that in other countries, the employee can pick any union they want, while in the US each employer is locked to a single union.

That single difference has a HUGE impact.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#83

Post by usefulcat » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

aabeshou wrote: post #53

usefulcat wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that kind of development model was that much of a liability, you'd think at least one studio or company would have figured that out and would now be killing it as a result. I suspect it's just one of many factors, and probably not that important by itself. The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and…

> The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and are willing to put up with those work conditions. If game developers don't feel exploited by their conditions, then they probably won't join/create the union. If they do feel exploited, then the union will be a good thing. > Given that, it's hard to see a wa…

> If they do feel exploited, then the union will be a good thing.

For them, perhaps. But not so much for future would-be game developers, who will likely have a harder time finding a game dev job.

> What barriers to entry do you foresee coming out of a union?

Even if union membership does not become a requirement for a job, merely reducing the number of hours worked will increase the cost of making games, even if pay doesn't increase under a union. If games become more expensive on average, consumers will buy fewer games, all else being equal. Fewer games made = fewer opportunities for new developers = studios can be more selective in hiring.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#84

Post by claudeganon » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #67

umvi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to unions. In theory they are great, but in practice they get implemented really poorly. I think we need to examine how other countries do unions because I agree, the one union I was in for a short time (teachers' union in California - I was basically forced to join even though the job was only temporary) felt like a ball and chain around my ankle taking a cut of my pay…

Employers tend to be a lot more hostile to unions in the US. This manifests with deliberately spread FUD about unions (e.g. the ridiculous Walmart video), covert attempts to sabotage, depiction of schoolteachers as terrorists (by the Kentucky governor) and, in one rather extreme case, aerial bombardment of striking workers.

Beyond that, you can’t really compare US unions to European ones because of the virulent anti-communism of US politics. In Europe, following the war, left wing coalitions of socialists, communists, and left liberals secured major parliamentary victories for workers. In the US, by contrast, sector-wide bargaining was banned, strikes were limited, and anyone with vaguely Marxist sympathies was purged from politics, the labor movement, and many industries through state intimidation and violence. Any comparison of unions across countries, and the shortcomings of American ones, has to be understood through this historical lens.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#85

Post by praptak » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #67

umvi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to unions. In theory they are great, but in practice they get implemented really poorly. I think we need to examine how other countries do unions because I agree, the one union I was in for a short time (teachers' union in California - I was basically forced to join even though the job was only temporary) felt like a ball and chain around my ankle taking a cut of my pay…

Employers tend to be a lot more hostile to unions in the US. This manifests with deliberately spread FUD about unions (e.g. the ridiculous Walmart video), covert attempts to sabotage, depiction of schoolteachers as terrorists (by the Kentucky governor) and, in one rather extreme case, aerial bombardment of striking workers.

See also Coca Cola union killings in Colombia.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#86

Post by aabeshou » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #70

aabeshou wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and are willing to put up with those work conditions. If game developers don't feel exploited by their conditions, then they probably won't join/create the union. If they do feel exploited, then the union will be a good thing. > Given that, it's hard to see a wa…

> " What barriers to entry do you foresee coming out of a union? " Making game development more expensive, obviously, since ending the current abusive practices is going to cost the publishers and development studios more money plus the overhead imposed by the union itself. Unions may have their benefits but it's undeniable that there's a cost there.

You have a point, but I think what actually happens isn't so sure, because there are still market forces putting downward pressure on barriers to entry. So either:

(1) The profit from abuse/exploitation gave a pure surplus, and the barriers to entry will remain the same but the surplus on the back will go down

(2) There is no real surplus, the profit from abuse/exploitation was the only thing keeping barriers to entry as low as they currently are, and they'll increase.

So we'll see what happens.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#87

Post by claudeganon » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #75

umvi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to unions. In theory they are great, but in practice they get implemented really poorly. I think we need to examine how other countries do unions because I agree, the one union I was in for a short time (teachers' union in California - I was basically forced to join even though the job was only temporary) felt like a ball and chain around my ankle taking a cut of my pay…

My concern is most of the tech union type initiatives in the US are from ... existing US unions. These orgnizations are NOT the places to start.

I would say it’s better to use and adapt an existing framework than try to build your own from scratch.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#88

Post by L_Rahman » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #48

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". All the video game industry has to do is to give its workers better treatment than they would get under union stewardship. Problem solved. But I expect video games will follow the path of many other industries, and keep beating their mules until the mules revolt. It's a lesson that has played out publicly hundreds of times over the l…

Sadly they might actually be. It's game theoretically an efficient strategy because they can extract so much before the workers unionize that it'll still be cheaper than compensating them fairly all along.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#89

Post by aabeshou » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

usefulcat wrote: post #83

aabeshou wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and are willing to put up with those work conditions. If game developers don't feel exploited by their conditions, then they probably won't join/create the union. If they do feel exploited, then the union will be a good thing. > Given that, it's hard to see a wa…

> If they do feel exploited, then the union will be a good thing. For them, perhaps. But not so much for future would-be game developers, who will likely have a harder time finding a game dev job. > What barriers to entry do you foresee coming out of a union? Even if union membership does not become a requirement for a job, merely reducing the number of hours worked will increase the cost of making games, even if pay…

Do unions decrease employment? I wasn't aware of that.

As I said in a different comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21982787), I don't think it's 100% sure that games would become more expensive. But if they do, I think it's a tradeoff we have to make in a humane society.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#90

Post by keiferski » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

sonofaplum wrote: post #58

touchpadder wrote: post #29

Game developers are like actors in Hollywood. Massive supply of candidates so the pay is not that great. It's a cool and challenging work but everyone would prefer it than "boring" programming jobs which actually pay much better and don't require crunching.

actors have a long standing, powerful and successful union.

Yeah I don't get why people bring up Hollywood in union discussions. Virtually every position in the film industry is unionized, even the semi-obscure ones like storyboard artists.