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A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

nytimes.com

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Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#81

Post by sievebrain »

sverige wrote: post #66
alexforster wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. > Has it hurt the development of some of the women who have been my direct reports over the years? Probably, but it has also protected the women I care about the most, namely my wife and daughter, because it has prevented any kind of accusations from getting traction. Jesus. You're aware that…

No, I cannot be sued for admitting this, because in my current position no one reports to me. And ironically, the bogeyman of being sued is not that scary. I have been falsely accused three times over the years, and completely exonerated by the EEOC and a court of law in one case. (The other two cases crumbled under the weight of the accusers' accumulated lies before getting to that point, so bad that their lawyers w…

Haha, great answer, I'm impressed at how you aren't backing down on this. Three times with legal action in all cases sounds terrible though, glad you were ok.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#82

Post by Krasnol »

mooseburger wrote: post #49
Krasnol wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think that the amount of people being victims in #metoo are just louder because they can be on twitter and tweet #metoo? Silencing them wouldn't bring your topic up because it's doing a bad job at promoting itself already (how could they?). It would just bring up other topics that promote them self. Of course being a dick about it, doesn't help the issue either.

Sure, the victims in Rotherham can't actually amplify it themselves, but typically, it's the media, who amplify such causes, not the victims. Consider the pedophilia plague in the Catholic church, that absolutely did not become world famous due to Twitter. The left notably also justifiably kicks up a ruckus over less, but were oddly silent on the rape gangs, as documented by a leftist himself here: https://medium.com…

Only because "the left media" is able to push something doesn't mean that they are necessary. Weinstein was a topic but it was nothing and would have been dead within the usual 2-3 weeks cycle the media usually creates if it hadn't been for one influential twitter user (in this case: Alyssa Milano). The Media then followed up on this hype not the other way around.

I don't know where you think left/right politics comes into your issue. Only because some lefty thinks they could get some attention from that but fails to generate it because he has not the same reach as Alyssa Milano? Where is the right then? The only thing you get from them regarding those topics is: "burn them!". You may generate attention with that within some closed UKIP facebook group maybe.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#83

Post by acct1771 »

549362-30499 wrote: post #62
sverige wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely past the mid-point right now. I'm fortunate to have begun my career just as the excesses of the second wave reached their peak, so I've spent my entire worklife assiduously avoiding any appearance of impropriety. I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. Many have tried to shame me into going out with a group, but I have…

Not knowing anything beyond your irrational refusal to have meetings with women and your apparent contempt for their careers, I'm inclined to believe the (multiple?!) sexual harassment complaints against you. It's really not normal to be regularly accused of that kind of behavior.

"Irrational refusal"?

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/06/linus_torvalds_targ...

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#84

Post by mooseburger »

Krasnol wrote: post #82
mooseburger wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the victims in Rotherham can't actually amplify it themselves, but typically, it's the media, who amplify such causes, not the victims. Consider the pedophilia plague in the Catholic church, that absolutely did not become world famous due to Twitter. The left notably also justifiably kicks up a ruckus over less, but were oddly silent on the rape gangs, as documented by a leftist himself here: https://medium.com…

Only because "the left media" is able to push something doesn't mean that they are necessary. Weinstein was a topic but it was nothing and would have been dead within the usual 2-3 weeks cycle the media usually creates if it hadn't been for one influential twitter user (in this case: Alyssa Milano). The Media then followed up on this hype not the other way around. I don't know where you think left/right politics come…

Left politics was a big part of the issue of why Rotherham even happened to begin with. It was documented that police and city councils were afraid to go after perpetrators for fear of being seen as racist.

>Some leftist... Alyssa Milano

This isn't about some leftist trying and failing to popularize, it's about nobody even trying to, over the course of 4 years. Just imagine the outrage if the perpetrators had been the EDL, and the victims immigrants.

>Where is the right then? The only thing you get from them regarding those topics is: "burn them!". You may generate attention with that within some closed UKIP facebook group maybe.

This is not suprising, the right has practically no cultural power.

To summarize, the reason I'm mad about the left's, and by extension, the mainstreams, reaction to Rotherham, is that:

a) The left typically deals with this. There's tons of examples of activism in reaction to women being victimized, but for this one case, unlike any of the other ones it's crickets.

b) It would have been a massive deal no one forgot about if the perpetators had been someone in the leftists outgroup (say, the far-right, or the church). These sorts of groups after all, get worse reputations over lesser offenses.

c) If the left doesn't come up with an answer to these issues, then only the far-right does, which dramatically increases their grassroots power, since they're actually responding to reality.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#85

Post by tptacek »

sievebrain wrote: post #80
549362-30499 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's really weird for you to refuse to have a regular 1:1 with your direct report because she's a woman. That's creepy and not normal at all.

No, it's getting quite common. The pence rule, they call it in America. I've been on the pointy end of a false accusation by a woman in my team who was upset I insisted on supervising and double checking her work (which was extremely poor). Lucky me, the accusation wasn't sexual and double lucky she was a terrible liar. But if you think false accusations are rare you are pretty naive and probably just were never in a…

It's not at all common. "The Pence rule" is noteworthy because it's so weird; it's reported as evidence of how out of the mainstream Pence is. If it was common, or becoming increasingly so, it would not be newsworthy when it's discovered that, for instance, he tried to organize an all-male jogging group "because he is married".

If the accusation you were at the other end of "wasn't sexual", I'm not sure what it has to do with this story, this thread, or with the gender of the accuser. I've been falsely accused of things at work by dudes, too. That is a thing that does happen.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#86

Post by Krasnol »

mooseburger wrote: post #84
Krasnol wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because "the left media" is able to push something doesn't mean that they are necessary. Weinstein was a topic but it was nothing and would have been dead within the usual 2-3 weeks cycle the media usually creates if it hadn't been for one influential twitter user (in this case: Alyssa Milano). The Media then followed up on this hype not the other way around. I don't know where you think left/right politics come…

Left politics was a big part of the issue of why Rotherham even happened to begin with. It was documented that police and city councils were afraid to go after perpetrators for fear of being seen as racist. >Some leftist... Alyssa Milano This isn't about some leftist trying and failing to popularize, it's about nobody even trying to, over the course of 4 years. Just imagine the outrage if the perpetrators had been th…

> It was documented that police and city councils were afraid to go after perpetrators for fear of being seen as racist.

So you really think that "the left" would rather take that then investigate such a hot issue? Seriously? Do you have a source on that documentation?

> This isn't about some leftist trying and failing to popularize, it's about nobody even trying to, over the course of 4 years.

So if "nobody" even tried, why is the left at fault? Wouldn't be "everybody" at fault? Maybe it's no racism conspiracy but something completely different? Whatever it is, it's completely different then what goes on in #metoo or #metwo where many people try. Many of them being affected themselves and so on.

> This is not suprising, the right has practically no cultural power.

Well, they managed #Brexit pretty well. That was 2 years ago.

> a) The left typically deals with this.

So let's wrap this up: not even the right cares about it even though it falls perfectly in their spectrum (as being the opposite of the left AND something with child abuse which is what they love to scream for death penalty), but the it's nonetheless the lefts fault...

> b) It would have been a massive deal no one forgot about if

Yeah, maybe. Maybe not.

> c) If the left doesn't come up with an answer to these issues, then only the far-right does, which dramatically increases their grassroots power, since they're actually responding to reality.

Where I come from, the justice system deals with such things. Not politics or the media or twitter. While you think it's the opposite and not only this, the left took the role of the justice system which has to be abolished if it doesn't do what you want.

I don't know man. It all sounds like the usual right wing madness argumentation which usually does not come from anywhere near reality ;)

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#87

Post by Eridrus »

Nasrudith wrote: post #74
Eridrus wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting downvoted because you're failing to see the bigger picture here, in much the same way journalists deciding "even if we got handed this by the russians, it's true, so we should publish it" is missing the bigger picture. Not to say that we shouldn't seek justice against these people, but that blindly making good local decisions may not end up with good global decisions.

Well wouldn't the reverse also be just as bad and exploitable? The classic is 'ignore misconduct because it might help 'the enemy' make us look bad' is in itself failing to see the big picture and one of the oldest ones in the book for the wicked to retain power. The proper solution morally of course is to reject false-dichotomies and oppose wrong on all sides - especially within 'your own'.

You're right, "ignore misconduct because it might help 'the enemy' make us look bad" has its own downsides, but the answer isn't "who cares who it hurts".

There are many ways to deal with misconduct - letting adversaries weaponize information against your own at a time they choose with no care for the implications is probably not the best way.

Re: A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

#88

Post by mooseburger »

Krasnol wrote: post #86
mooseburger wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Left politics was a big part of the issue of why Rotherham even happened to begin with. It was documented that police and city councils were afraid to go after perpetrators for fear of being seen as racist. >Some leftist... Alyssa Milano This isn't about some leftist trying and failing to popularize, it's about nobody even trying to, over the course of 4 years. Just imagine the outrage if the perpetrators had been th…

> It was documented that police and city councils were afraid to go after perpetrators for fear of being seen as racist. So you really think that "the left" would rather take that then investigate such a hot issue? Seriously? Do you have a source on that documentation? > This isn't about some leftist trying and failing to popularize, it's about nobody even trying to, over the course of 4 years. So if "nobody" even tr…

> Seriously? Do you have a source on that documentation? It's in the Jay report (http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_...):

By far the majority of perpetrators were described as 'Asian' by victims, yet throughout the entire period, councillors did not engage directly with the Pakistani-heritage community to discuss how best they could jointly address the issue. Some councillors seemed to think it was a one-off problem, which they hoped would go away. Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so.

> So if "nobody" even tried, why is the left at fault? Wouldn't be "everybody" at fault?

Nobody in the left tried is what I mean, not nobody in general. Parts of the right did try, but they get dismissed as far-right loonies (apparently the rational thing to do about this is to not care, and memory-hole it?).

> the justice system deals with such things. Not politics or the media or twitter.

This would be ideal, but the justice system dealt with it only after decades, thousands of victims, and even some murders. This was a massive government failure that has been memory-holed, and you seem to believe it's some kind of non-event.

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